Cybertruck trimotor has lowest cost per mile of range among all Teslas

[Mule Ferguson]

Good info.

https://hackaday.com/2019/02/04/tesla-eyes-ultracapacitor-future-with-maxwell-acquisition/

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[ajdelange]

This keeps coming up from time to time. Elon himself has said that there is probably no place for super capacitors in his cars. In various places I have done calculations as to how many super capacitors would be required to add 1 mile of range to the CT. I don't remember the numbers but those super capacitors would cost more than the entire cost of a trimotor CT IIRC. Tesla did not buy Maxwell for its super capacitors. It bought them for the dry coating technology they use to make the supercapacitors as it appears that that technology can be used to make the electrodes for Lithium ion batteries.

 

[Mule Ferguson]

More Info. Maybe our Roadster will have it.. I have not reserved it yet. I have 200 share's.. If it goes to $1500. I sell and order. pay cash.

https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-roadster-2020-maxwell-supercapacitors/

 

[ajdelange]

Probably not unless they are in the sound system. Another possible use might be in the regenerative braking system. The energy required to accelerate a 2500 kg vehicle from 0 to 60 is about 3.5 kWh. That's equivalent to approximately 7 miles range in a vehicle that eats 500 Wh/mi. Super capacitors sufficient to supply that burst would cost more than a couple of Roadsters. The guy that wrote the article didn't do the math. Ignore the math if you like but don't ignore Elon.

 

[Mule Ferguson]

Another view. Go 2 18:44

https://insideevs.com/news/387037/tesla-apart-detroit-sandy-munro/

 

[ajdelange]

The clip is only 6:45 long.

 

[Nipomo]

I picked the Tri-motor after they moved up production by a year. As for range It won’t hurt to have a little extra. As to cost, I have ”sunk” cost in a solar PV array. I will be producing enough energy to provide local travel.

 

[bfdog]

I picked the Tri-motor after they moved up production by a year. As for range It won’t hurt to have a little extra. As to cost, I have ”sunk” cost in a solar PV array. I will be producing enough energy to provide local travel.

Yeah but now they have to figure out how to deliver the highest range on the least efficient version (heaviest) first. I’m skeptical and think he’s gonna have to pull a rabbit out of a hat. But it’s the thing I look forward to most. Saving pennies.

 

[ajdelange]

They know how to do that and it's really a pretty simple concept. How do you get more range in an ICE truck, especially one that is heavier? Put in a bigger gas tank. And that's what Tesla is doing. The biggest energy sink in a motor vehicle is the kinetic energy of the vehicle as it is accelerated and which energy is subsequently lost when the vehicle is braked. One of the big advantages of EVs is that much of this energy can be recaptured. But not all of it. Thus the heaviest vehicle is less efficient than the lighter ones but not so much so as would be the case were regen not available. This means that by doubling (I don't, of course, know what the actual battery size increase factor will be) the battery you can easily compensate for the extra mass of the heavier truck (no small part of which is attributable to the battery) and add 200 miles range. I don't think we need to worry too much about the 500 mile range spec.

 

[bfdog]

They know how to do that and it's really a pretty simple concept. How do you get more range in an ICE truck, especially one that is heavier? Put in a bigger gas tank. And that's what Tesla is doing. The biggest energy sink in a motor vehicle is the kinetic energy of the vehicle as it is accelerated and which energy is subsequently lost when the vehicle is braked. One of the big advantages of EVs is that much of this energy can be recaptured. But not all of it. Thus the heaviest vehicle is less efficient than the lighter ones but not so much so as would be the case were regen not available. This means that by doubling (I don't, of course, know what the actual battery size increase factor will be) the battery you can easily compensate for the extra mass of the heavier truck (no small part of which is attributable to the battery) and add 200 miles range. I don't think we need to worry too much about the 500 mile range spec.

What about the energy required to plow through air between accelerating and stopping? I rode a bike 100 miles one day and I assure you that accelerating to cruising speed was the easy part. And I was on a very nice road bike--the CyberTruck is the equivalent of a mountain bike--it would have killed me to ride that 100 miles on a mountain bike.

Load Range E tires - higher rolling resistance. 7000 lbs - a lot of mass to accelerate. Drag coefficient of .3+ (compared to 0.23 for Model 3) (estimated without bumpers, mirrors, whatever else). All these factors make it seem harder than getting double the range of the model 3.

If getting 500+ were as easy as adding a bigger gas tank electric cars would be getting 500 miles to a charge now. Yes, the extra mass seems like it would make regen braking among models a wash.

 

[Cyber_Dav]

What about the energy required to plow through air between accelerating and stopping?

That's why he said not 100% recovery. Lots of other losses, too.

If getting 500+ were as easy as adding a bigger gas tank electric cars would be getting 500 miles to a charge now.

They easily could, but batteries are the expensive part. They can't get the range at the price point they require, so they cheap out.

 

[ajdelange]

Bearing friction, ohmic losses, wheel slip, energy lost in recovery, drag etc all sum to give the total consumption. The physics are the same for a heavy truck as for a light truck though the numbers will be different. Tesla has enough experience by now to know how to measure and/or estimate these losses quite accurately. Given this it should be quite clear that they can estimate the total consumption of a heavy vehicle just as well as they can for a lighter one. If the heavier vehicle's consumption is 125% of the lighter one's then to have the same range as the lighter one it is only necessary that the battery be 25% larger.

 

[hridge2020]

Good info.... Next need actual specs now..

 

[bfdog]

Bearing friction, ohmic losses, wheel slip, energy lost in recovery, drag etc all sum to give the total consumption. The physics are the same for a heavy truck as for a light truck though the numbers will be different. Tesla has enough experience by now to know how to measure and/or estimate these losses quite accurately. Given this it should be quite clear that they can estimate the total consumption of a heavy vehicle just as well as they can for a lighter one. If the heavier vehicle's consumption is 125% of the lighter one's then to have the same range as the lighter one it is only necessary that the battery be 25% larger.

In 2013, Musk said that all of Tesla's Supercharger stations would be equipped with solar panels within a few years. That hasn't happened.

In 2015, Musk said "I think we will have complete autonomy in approximately two years." He has pushed that timeline back to 2019.

Musk in 2016 said Tesla would produce 500,000 vehicles in 2018. Tesla made 254,530 vehicles during 2018.

Musk said in 2016 that a fully autonomous Tesla vehicle would be ready to drive cross-country by the end of 2017. That still hasn't happened.

In June 2018, Musk said that Tesla was cutting 9% of its workforce so that "we never have to do this again." In January 2019, Tesla cut another 7%.

In August 2018, Musk famously tweeted he has "Funding secured" to take Tesla private. The SEC later charged Musk with fraud.

In January 2019, Musk said the company would be "profitable in Q1 and all quarters going forward." The company reported a loss in the first quarter.

In February 2019, Musk said Tesla would be "winding down many of our stores." Tesla later said it would only close about half the 378 stores it intended to.

"Spooling up production line rapidly. Hoping to manufacture ~1000 solar roofs/week by end of this year."

"Just deleted my Twitter account."

"All Tesla Supercharger stations in regions affected by California power outages will have Tesla Powerpacks within next few weeks. Just waiting on permits."

By next year, a Tesla should be able to drive around a parking lot, find an empty spot, read signs to confirm it’s valid & park

Teslaquila coming soon...

"Aiming for same day soon, then under an hour. Goal is for repaired car to be better than before accident. Should always be true if damaged/used parts are correctly replaced with newer parts."

"Fossil fuel merchants of doubt have been pushing that bs for years. Tesla Gigafactory will be 100% renewable powered (by Tesla Solar) by end of next year."

"Please consider this a commitment that I will fund fixing the water in any house in Flint that has water contamination above FDA levels. No kidding."

"We’re working on allowing you to use your phone in car when you hear a rattle/squeak & pinpoint origin by acoustic signature & triangulation"

"I'm starting a candy company & it's going to be amazing. I am super super serious."

"You will be able to do pretty much anything via voice command. Software team is focused on core Model 3 functionality right now, but that will be done soon, then we will add a lot more features."

"Cost per seat should be about the same as full fare economy in an aircraft."

"All you will need to do is get in and tell your car where to go."

"In ~2 years, summon should work anywhere connected by land & not blocked by borders, eg you're in LA and the car is in NY."

"There is a way for the Tesla Model S to be recharged throughout the country faster than you could fill a gas tank."

"Tesla does not need to ever raise another funding round."


Thanks for EE-splaining to another EE the physics of energy loss in a car. Color me skeptical of Musk's promises a couple months before trying to raise $2B and also while trying to boost stock to get his about $55 billion payout if Tesla stock holds its value. If the CEO spends New Year's hand delivering cars, something's not right. But I remain cautiously optimistic. I bet neither Musk nor any of his engineers has ever towed 14K plus pounds though.

I love Elon Musk and have for years. I coached a robot team for years and was amazed all my youngsters knew who Michael Jordan was (long retired) but had no clue who Elon Musk was. That has now changed, but... what hasn't changed is Elon Musk over-promising and sorta delivering half the time. I am cautiously optimistic and I plan to be ready to purchase the 3M truck. I'm 78K in line or so. I towed a rented 12,000 skidsteer today (rented to get mine unstuck off a hill) with a heavy trailer for even more weight. It was quite a load. I'm sure Tesla can design an adequate tow vehicle on paper (built with the same (non-frame, unproven) design used to tow 7500 pounds). But there is a reason Ford makes the Super Duty. I feel like Musk is trying to take an electric Honda Ridgeline and saying it will tow 14K+ and go over 500 miles (with all the inefficiencies that allow towing heavy) just by adding some batteries. I'm counting the days though--very excited.

The rock proof windows literally broke on stage at the reveal and people think every other promise is going to hold? I hope they do, but...

 

[ricinro]

delusional optimism? or delayed optimism. Folks make aspirational promises all the time. We should only admire the positivism and reserve grains of salt for the rest.

Will the factory open late 2021? Probably not but they probably will try hard and succeed in 2022. Close enough.

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