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Idaho_7

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I'm sure if they are able to do this with their batteries, they will do both. I used to work in transportation logistics and while it wasn't for personal vehicles, it's similar logic. I think for cars like the model 3, they would keep a standard range option that would be able to be cheaper. This allows them to tap into the more affordable market. On the other hand, they also offer long range options which could then just be the same space for batteries but with a much further range.

WIth the Cybertruck, I hope they keep all models the same battery size and just increase the range. I know some people will be buying the single motor and might not use it as a truck at all. But the Cybertruck will be a utility vehicle and I would hope someone with the single motor is still about to get at least a couple hundred miles while hauling some stuff in the back. I would love to see 1000km out of my trimotor if that's possible before it's delivered.
Well stated CyberMoose: A combination of 1.) Lighter, more compact, less expensive vehicles can had along with 2.) Much longer range in other vehicles, load carrying, towing work vehicles is what is needed.

Once the industry reaches 1,000 mile range capability (as needed) and beyond the ICE industry will be greatly reduced.
 

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Well stated CyberMoose: A combination of 1.) Lighter, more compact, less expensive vehicles can had along with 2.) Much longer range in other vehicles, load carrying, towing work vehicles is what is needed.

Once the industry reaches 1,000 mile range capability (as needed) and beyond the ICE industry will be greatly reduced.
This is a confusing statement. It seems clear that at 300-400 miles of effective range people start switching from ICE to EV in much larger numbers. If the sticker price drops to the point where there is price parity of equivalent vehicles, and there is charging infrastructure to support the vehicles, and the charging times start to approach the time it takes to fill an ICE vehicle, 'then' there will be a massive switch. Until then it will be various forms of slow migration. If you mean by 1,000 miles a comparison to what some have said that some high-end ICE trucks can get, then you should say so, because that is a sub-industry not the entire automotive industry. I would be very pleased indeed to have 500 miles as advertised, and that is why I made a reservation. Would I be even happier with more range? Of course I would. Range is king after all. But I don't think that 1,000 miles is needed (alone or in combination with charging and infrastructure) to woo ICE advocates away. And we are missing a large part of the argument that is much more cultural than technological. Some people just hate EVs because they want to, not because they should.
 

Blue Steel

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This is a confusing statement. It seems clear that at 300-400 miles of effective range people start switching from ICE to EV in much larger numbers. If the sticker price drops to the point where there is price parity of equivalent vehicles, and there is charging infrastructure to support the vehicles, and the charging times start to approach the time it takes to fill an ICE vehicle, 'then' there will be a massive switch. Until then it will be various forms of slow migration. If you mean by 1,000 miles a comparison to what some have said that some high-end ICE trucks can get, then you should say so, because that is a sub-industry not the entire automotive industry. I would be very pleased indeed to have 500 miles as advertised, and that is why I made a reservation. Would I be even happier with more range? Of course I would. Range is king after all. But I don't think that 1,000 miles is needed (alone or in combination with charging and infrastructure) to woo ICE advocates away. And we are missing a large part of the argument that is much more cultural than technological. Some people just hate EVs because they want to, not because they should.
Maybe he's concerned about long distance towing of large loads in sub-zero temps. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 

Crissa

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The efficiency of electric is impossible to argue, the only things people quibble about now is range, so having the option - especially if it uses less limited resources per kwh.

-Crissa
 

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The efficiency of electric is impossible to argue, the only things people quibble about now is range, so having the option - especially if it uses less limited resources per kwh.

...and the economics of the typical premium paid for the EV. We're headed in the right direction, but there is still a premium paid for EVs and for those of us that typically buy used vehicles, that premium is even higher. I can buy several years worth of gas for the premium I'd be paying for the Cyber truck. I can get a new 2020 Limited F150, 4x4, crew cab w/6.5 bed listed at $67k, but I'm sure I could get it for closer to $60k.

My reality makes that premium even higher yet, because I would typically not buy a Limited F150. I buy at the FX4, XLT trim level. Which is comparatively listed for about $50k, but can probably be purchased for $45k. The cyber truck doesn't offer different trims with each motor level. So if I want to go electric, I have to buy a truck that is perhaps more plush that I need.

And the jury is still out on the insurance cost but with the exception of Tesla Insurance available in California only I believe insurance is typically more for EVs...at least here in US.

Again, we are headed in the right direction and I'm really excited about the battery day coming, but economics still play a role in the decision making.

Back to the subject. I'm less optimistic then many here that the CT range will be increased with any battery day reveals. I really do think when the CT was reveled, it was based on the reality of where Tesla knew its battery tech would be by the time the CT was going into production. I hope I'm wrong and it turns out 500+ actually turns into 600+ or more, but I doubt that is the case. I will always argue for more range. It's still cheaper to drive then fly in most cases and the less stops I have to make the faster I can start my vacation(s), or the longer I can stay hunting in the battery draining cold mountains of Colorado.
 

MEDICALJMP

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...and the economics of the typical premium paid for the EV. We're headed in the right direction....
I could not have written your entire statement any better. Agree with you 100%. Typically I buy used as well and keep until the wheels fall off. Trimotor is more than I would want to spend. This is likely going to be more than every other car I’ve got together. I’m willing to spend that because it’s exactly what I want and it will help to push the EV Market to main stream. This will be the last vehicle I own.
 

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I hear everybody talk about range being the key to acceptance of EV's. It's true when you are talking about less than 300-400 miles range. But, when you get into that range, you are talking NORMAL driving distances on a road trip between stops. So, with more vehicles being at or near that range there are 2 stumbling blocks for the general public to adopt EV's.
(1) Is purchase price. Like lancethibault mentioned. Most people try to avoid buying new vehicles, to avoid the huge loss in value from the first couple of years ownership with a new car (Think other EV's besides Tesla). So, batteries are a major part of pricing. MAYBE new battery tech can make a difference as prices of batteries go down. Another thing, maybe after Tesla builds the Cybertruck with it's exoskeleton, they may build smaller less expensive vehicles along those lines also.
(2) Is refueling time. stopping every 2 1/2 hours to spend 45-60 mins. refueling is very inconvenient. Sure you could deal with it, if it's gonna save you money and you really like driving a EV. But for general public, that's not acceptable. Now this also, COULD be changed with battery tech. Those Nio cars from China being able to change batteries in 3 mins. is mind blowing. All that would take, is having a standardized battery shell, to keep different battery configurations inside. Then with robotics, a station could do quick changes. Also, shorter charging times could be accomplished with newer battery tech also.
I honestly think those 2 things, are way more important than just adding range. Say you do get a battery with 700 miles range, people aren't going to LIKE driving even 5 hours towing and have to sit at a charging station for 2 hours. It would be way more acceptable, to have less range with a much shorter refueling time!
 

ldjessee

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As the cell voltage is around 3.6 volts and as one of those little cells is only good for a small number of Ah it is clear that a whole lot (7,000?) of them are needed to make up a 100 kWh battery pack. The actual way in which they are assembled into modules depends on things like the way in which they are cooled, the way in which they are equalized and, obviously, the physical space into which they must fit. Clearly one can increase the capacity of the battery by adding more modules - in series for higher voltage; in parallel for higher current and they can be switched from series to parallel and back for high voltage charging but low voltage running.
I always thought it would make sense to have super/ultra capacitors mixed with batteries, because the batteries I was familiar with at the time could not take nor discharge a large amount without damage...

But the huge number of cells to spread the draw and charge across alleviates some of that, I know, and Elon has said it just makes sense to make the battery better than to waste time on the capacitor... but maybe it would not be a waste for niche markets, like high speed racing, where they go from 200 mph down to 60 to take a corner, then back up again...
 

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stopping every 2 1/2 hours to spend 45-60 mins. refueling is very inconvenient.
That would be inconvenient but it isn't the reality. The average charging times are closer to half those i.e 20 - 40 minutes. In addition to that the reality is that most charging is done in 10 -15 seconds which is the total length of time that you spend plugging and unplugging when you arrive at and depart home.

If you offer me two cars otherwise equal except that one has 50 miles more range than the other but the other charges 4 times faster I would take the one with the 50 miles range without pause. The ability to super charge in 5 - 10 minutes as opposed to 20 - 40 just doesn't matter to me.

But that's me. Others, chiefly those who spend more time super charging than charging at home or who are on the road a lot may have a different perspective.

Up until recently range and charging time were excellent sticks with which the anti BEV crowd could beat the BEV fans. While that is no longer the case they are still great metrics for competition and so the makers continue to do everything they can to extend range and charging speed. As the 400 mile range of the S and Lucid and other cars are now becoming yawn inducers the focus is again turning to faster charging.

Thus I believe price is the main thing holding back the flood of BEV sales that we are all looking for. FUDsters are no longer given much heed thus it will be the price point that beomes the breakpoint.
 

ajdelange

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The thing with the caps is that while they can be charged and discharged super fast their specific energy densities are orders of magnitude less than that of batteries. You can buy arrays on Amazon. Figure out how many of them would be required to provide 1 kWh of boost.
 

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100% agree that...
"It would be way more acceptable, to have less range with a much shorter refueling time!"

But until that tech and infrastructure exist, I want more range. I just made a one way 1358 mile trip straight though and back with my wife. Each way took about 22 hrs. If the range of my CT3 is 500 miles those trips now take 3 days to accomplish because I would have had to overnight twice waiting to charge up. When I go hunt, it's 156 miles one way, or 312 round trip plus the miles put in driving around the mountains while I'm hunting...which is about 50 miles or so per day. Given the low temps and the mountain terrain, my assumption is that I won't be able to hunt much more then a day, (if even that) with this 500 mile range vehicle unless I find a way to add mileage to it...like generator charging every night. I don't currently own a generator...so add that to the price of what I need the truck to do. Until we know how far this 500+ range actually is under less then ideal circumstances, I'm still a skeptic that this is the vehicle for me. But I'm still excited about it and I'm not asking for refund on my early deposit anytime soon.
 
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VolklKatana

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  • Thread starter
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People need to understand, drving and charging a tesla isnt like using a gas vehicle. Specifically, how using a supercharger on a road-trip works. there are lots of videos out there with people showing how its done. You dont 'fill up' when you hit a charger. the first 65-70% or so of adding charge to your vehicle is very fast, the last 20% not so much. this means you make more stops, but for a much shorter duration. maybe 15 minutes each stop, ever 200 miles...

1598560132528.png
 
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ajdelange

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The way it generally goes is illustrated by the five examples in this graph.
charges-jpg.jpg


In three of them we clearly drove until we saw we were getting low on energy (below 20%) and thus stopped to charge. As the graphs show and as was mentioned in the post preceding this one at irst charging rates are high and stay high until charge level reaches 25 - 40% at which time it "tapers" down to about 60% of the original rate. At least that's what it did on these three particular trips.

The other two charges represent where you are looking at your destination, see that while you have plenty of charge at the moment you will have an uncomfortably low margin at the destination and so decide to "top up" a bit at a charger that is conveniently close to where you are at the moment.

So it is the same as in an ICE vehicle in the sense that when you get low you stop to "fill up" but different in the sense that you don't usually "fill up" and also different in the sense that you may do a "tactical" fill up based on what you predict for the remainder of the trip even though you have plenty on board at the moment.
 

Sirfun

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That would be inconvenient but it isn't the reality. The average charging times are closer to half those i.e 20 - 40 minutes. In addition to that the reality is that most charging is done in 10 -15 seconds which is the total length of time that you spend plugging and unplugging when you arrive at and depart home.

If you offer me two cars otherwise equal except that one has 50 miles more range than the other but the other charges 4 times faster I would take the one with the 50 miles range without pause. The ability to super charge in 5 - 10 minutes as opposed to 20 - 40 just doesn't matter to me.

But that's me. Others, chiefly those who spend more time super charging than charging at home or who are on the road a lot may have a different perspective.

Up until recently range and charging time were excellent sticks with which the anti BEV crowd could beat the BEV fans. While that is no longer the case they are still great metrics for competition and so the makers continue to do everything they can to extend range and charging speed. As the 400 mile range of the S and Lucid and other cars are now becoming yawn inducers the focus is again turning to faster charging.

Thus I believe price is the main thing holding back the flood of BEV sales that we are all looking for. FUDsters are no longer given much heed thus it will be the price point that beomes the breakpoint.
Hey AJ,
I appreciate your response. I've been looking at abetterrouteplanner, and doing virtual trips, looks very inconvenient to me. As you mentioned you have/and are entitled to your opinion, that's fine. I'm attaching a print screen of a trip to Moab with a Dual motor. I set usage at 425kwh @65mph. For speed I set 112%, which is like 73 in a 65 speed limit which is my normal driving. Did I do something wrong. Please tell me it's not gonna be this much stopping and waiting to recharge on trips. I totally agree with you, most of my time/around home. I won't be supercharging and spending 10-15 sec. plugging and unplugging to my home. Even though the price of charging looks good, I really don't want to spend 3h. 14mins. charging to go 788 miles. Oh, and when I get to the destination I'm on 10% also. There's another 45 mins. unless I get some kind of destination charge.
trip2moab.jpg
 
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