ISN'T IT TIME FOR ALL HOTELS TO START INCLUDING ELECTRIC VEHICLE CHARGING STATIONS?

[Ogre]

So I guess you sneak your laundry out of classy hotels too.

Your logic on this is just getting weirder all the time.

Do you go out of the way and pay to wash your sheets at a hotel too?

I would be onboard with paying $15-20/ night for powered parking much like I pay for WiFi at times. But I vastly prefer hotels that don’t price gorge for services with very low incremental costs.


This valet parking idea is what’s stupid. Unless it’s otherwise valet only. One months wages will pay for adding an extra charging stall.

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[ajdelange]

Why pay for WiFi. Man that's just dumb when I can tether to my phone for nothing. Or log into the system of someone in the neighborhood. Fairmont has free WiFi if you sign up for the better rooms. You also get a really nice breakfast in a semi-private dining room. But you still have to use their valet parking.

Valet parking is stupid? Are you nipping this afternoon. It is hot out there.

Did you see the picture of the dam at the gouge? The hotel there had free WiFi

 

[firsttruck]

Yeah putting in a level 2 charger is only a 500 bucks, a 1500 installed unless you need long power runs. A level 3 charger has to be 20k or more. Doing 10 level 2 charger would be comparable cost. Plus don’t have to pay a valet.

In many cases 10 parking spots can be done for a lot less than $20K.

Just supply a RV/dryer type NEMA 14-50 outlet at each spot instead of a $500 EVSE. This is what is done at RV parks. I doubt RV park would spend even $10K for full installation to do 10 adjacent parking spots of car width. A good outdoor 14-50 240V 50A RV/dryer type outlet is about $50. Most EVs have option for their mobile charger cable to plug into 14-50 outlet.

The official Tesla adapter for the Tesla mobile charge cable to NEMA 14-50 is $45
web page has chart of example charging speeds
Tesla 14-50 adapter
https://shop.tesla.com/product/gen-2-nema-adapters


$50 Talon LGP1S 50-Amp Enclosed, Outdoor Rated, Receptacle
Ul listed panel
Outdoor rated
https://www.amazon.com/Talon-LGP1S-Enclosed-Outdoor-Receptacle/dp/B00M3H6494

 

[ajdelange]

The HPWC are free supplied by Tesla and there is an allowance of about $11K for installation as well. At least that was the case recently.

 

[Sirfun]

So I guess you sneak your laundry out of classy hotels too. Thing is there was a time when I would have agreed with you. But as I get older and I realize I can't spend it all in the time I have left my attitude has changed. I do use valet services now - or let's say I am transitioning in that direction. The cheap bastard in me is still kicking to some extent.

And I guess you don't know about "demand charges".

Actually, with your attitude you wouldn't be in a 5 star hotel anyway. As a colleague used to say "I'm not in the room most of the day and when I am my eyes are mostly closed. Why would I want a fancy hotei?"

I see and live both sides of this discussion. Personally, I am looking forward to my son and I taking the CT on a vacation and camping out in the wilderness for free. Now on the other end of the spectrum, when my wife plans our vacations, 4-5 star hotels are the norm. Valet parking can be nice, but it can also be a pain. When I think about Hotels putting in the infrastructure To fill-up my vehicle overnight, it just seems obvious that it will be a service that I will be charged for, and depending on the price of those charges, I'm probably going to be fine with them.

 

[ajdelange]

Yes. I don’t know what the fuss is about. I think someone is sipping cervesas in the heat. Come to think of it that’s what I’m doing.

 

[rodmacpherson]

All of you talking about valet wages are more expensive than installing EVSEs... I don't think you get that the hotels I referenced earlier were hotels that have valets anyway. and yes, if you have valets you have to have them on all shifts. It is not a choice of valet or another EVSE, the valet is there anyway, and most of his/her night is spent sitting around waiting for something to do, so marking down what time each car says it will be done charging and swapping the plug to the next car at that time is no real cost to the hotel.

A Day's Inn would do better just installing 120v outlets (which can also be used for block heaters in colder areas for the folk still driving ICE.) and a couple of level 2 EVSEs for those who need more charge in one evening. It's not a matter of hiring valets just to plug cars in, but if you already have valets you can get away with fewer plugs by better utilizing the valet's time.

Eventually yes, most hotel parking spaces will probably have EVSEs, but the demand isn't there yet, as demand grows it will become an amenity that counts toward the hotel's star rating and hotels will install them just to keep up with the competition.

 

[Crissa]

There's no real reason EVSEs cost vastly more than 14-50 outlets, honestly. They take the same installation. The former has more copper, sure, but the logic board is not really all that much more than some resistors.

But the point of having a valet, making them dance cars isn't efficient. That's time they could be helping guests, and you'll end up needing more to do it. On top of that, the Supercharger or CCS charger is about 10x more expensive than the Level 2 EVSE, and the power drop for it is also much, much more expensive. Using valets that way is okay in the short term, but mostly it's a dumb idea that'll waste money.

Just like buying an EV has a lower TCO, same for having Level 2 charging vs a stopgap of having a DC charging stall.

-Crissa

 

[Ogre]

Valet parking is stupid? Are you nipping this afternoon. It is hot out there.

Does it make you feel smarter to mistate what people said then reply to your imagined interpretation?

knocking them strawmen down again?

 

[Ogre]

I don't think you get that the hotels I referenced earlier were hotels that have valets anyway.

That makes more sense. I usually don’t use valet parking if I can avoid it because the whole idea of having an attendant fetch my car from across the lot always seems silly to me. I get that some people want it. But it’s always faster for me to just walk to the car.

Feel the same way about pumping gas and I live in one of the two states that requires it by law. Fortunately don’t go to gas stations much any more.

A Day's Inn would do better just installing 120v outlets

120 volt outlets are barely adequate for home use. If you are on the road they are nearly pointless. You get roughly 4 miles per hour. So a 10 hour overnight gets you 40 miles and you still need a Supercharger stop

Upping the amperage increases charge speed and charge efficiency greatly. Going from a 15 Amp circuit to a 60 Amp circuit gets you nearly 11 times the charge speed for 4 times the power. That means your customers drive away with a full charge and your power bill is the same.

 

[ajdelange]

Does it make you feel smarter to mistate what people said then reply to your imagined interpretation?

knocking them strawmen down again?

No. I'm definitely not getting any smarter. But I think you have to understand that if you say that valet parking is a stupid idea some fool out there is going to assume that you mean to imply that valet parking is a stupid idea.

Upping the amperage increases charge speed and charge efficiency greatly.

I'm taking that, rightly or wrongly, to mean that increasing amperage increases charge efficiency greatly and I'm going to have to ask for clarification. I get median efficiency 91.9% from AC charging and irrespective of current wonder what sort of numbers you are seeing that cause you to report a great increase with current.

Going from a 15 Amp circuit to a 60 Amp circuit gets you nearly 11 times the charge speed for 4 times the power.

A 15 Amp 120V circuit delivers 0.8*15*120 W, A 15 Amp 240V circuit delivers 0.8*15*240 W. A 60A circuit 240 V circuit delivers 0.8*60*240 W. The ratio is 60/15 = 4 or 60*2/15 = 8. How do we get 11X improvement in charging speed from 4X or 8X the power?

That means your customers drive away with a full charge and your power bill is the same.

In the real world efficiency is going to be a bit over 90% (on averge) irrespective of charging rate so that the number of miiles transferred to a car depends only on how many watt hours have been delivered to it at whatever rate. Putting demand charges aside for a moment it doesn't matter whether the Wh are coming from a 15A wall socket, a 48A HPWC or a 50 kW CHAdeMO charger. The obvious driving factor is the speed at which those Wh can be delivered. Faster delivery means more vehicles can be serviced in a given time window and also may allow dodging of premium rate charges.

 

[rodmacpherson]

120 volt outlets are barely adequate for home use. If you are on the road they are nearly pointless. You get roughly 4 miles per hour. So a 10 hour overnight gets you 40 miles and you still need a Supercharger stop

For someone who is staying more than one night or driving a PHEV that is all they need. No need to dedicate a 50 amp circuit to someone who doesn't have the hardware to use it.

 

[Ogre]

For someone who is staying more than one night or driving a PHEV that is all they need. No need to dedicate a 50 amp circuit to someone who doesn't have the hardware to use it.

PHEV is a dead end. They are primarily built so automakers can comply with regulations.

Investing in supporting a class of car which won’t exist in a few years isn’t good business. PHEVs should support 1772 connectors regardless.

 

[Ogre]

How do we get 11X improvement in charging speed from 4X or 8X the power?

Ask Tesla it’s their numbers from their site.

https://www.tesla.com/support/home-charging-installation/wall-connector

Looking at their Wall charger numbers, I suspect the difference is largely in the efficacy of the wall charger versus the mobile charger. If you wire the wall charger with only 15 amps, it’s a little more than twice as efficient as the mobile charger.

 

[ajdelange]

Ask Tesla it’s their numbers from their site.

https://www.tesla.com/support/home-charging-installation/wall-connector

What do I ask? In looking at that table I see a power ratio of 4.1 and rate ratios of, respectively for the S, 3, X and P, 4.85, 4.0, 6.0 and 4.2. I don't see any 11's.

Keep in mind that these are nominal numbers and you may get something quite different with your actual car. For example 30 mph for an X on a 60A breaker is commensurate with an older X which had a rated consumption of 330 Wh/mi. The newer model I drive has a rated consumption of 282 and I therefore see 35 mph.

Looking at their Wall charger numbers, I suspect the difference is largely in the efficacy of the wall charger versus the mobile charger. If you wire the wall charger with only 15 amps, it’s a little more than twice as efficient as the mobile charger.

The HPWC set to 15A is twice as efficacious as the UMC with the NEMA 5-15 adapter because it sends 240V to the car whereas the UMC only sends 120V. A NEMA 6 - 15R is wired for 240 V so if you plug the UMC with the proper adapter into one of those you will get the same performance as with the HPWC set to 15A.

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