Musk drives FSD Beta in Palo Alta

[JBee]

I get that people don't want FSD to stop for them. I just want the choice of actually stopping.

I often thought about having a kill switch mounted on the dash of the CT like they have on heavy machinery. Super useful as a safety device. The whole "always on", all electronic code controlled safety, including gear shift, accelerator and steering, sometimes makes me concerned if they really got the code right, or if the latest update has a glitch.

On our recent trip in the US we even had a uncommanded acceleration whilst pulling into a carpark with a MY. It was quite disconcerting, but we got used to the idiosyncrasies of the MY autoplot after a while, and never really let our guard down. On the freeway it always seemed to have problems with faded lane markers, that would trigger something unintended.

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[Jhodgesatmb]

I often thought about having a kill switch mounted on the dash of the CT like they have on heavy machinery. Super useful as a safety device. The whole "always on", all electronic code controlled safety, including gear shift, accelerator and steering, sometimes makes me concerned if they really got the code right, or if the latest update has a glitch.

On our recent trip in the US we even had a uncommanded acceleration whilst pulling into a carpark with a MY. It was quite disconcerting, but we got used to the idiosyncrasies of the MY autoplot after a while, and never really let our guard down. On the freeway it always seemed to have problems with faded lane markers, that would trigger something unintended.

All of these things are correct about AP or NoAP but no one is forcing you to use it. For decades all my cars came with cruise control, and as long as I was on a flat road without traffic they worked ok, but on hills they were psychotic. Maybe they still are, but I stopped using them.

The other manufacturers are touting 'smart' cruise control systems and are also somewhat psychotic. My MYLR is in the body shop (my own stupidity) and I have a KIA EV6 rental and it is damned scary what it does without my 'permission'.

So we can rightfully be concerned about Tesla AP/NoAP but it is the best, by far, that I have seen of such systems.

 

[JBee]

All of these things are correct about AP or NoAP but no one is forcing you to use it. For decades all my cars came with cruise control, and as long as I was on a flat road without traffic they worked ok, but on hills they were psychotic. Maybe they still are, but I stopped using them.

The other manufacturers are touting 'smart' cruise control systems and are also somewhat psychotic. My MYLR is in the body shop (my own stupidity) and I have a KIA EV6 rental and it is damned scary what it does without my 'permission'.

So we can rightfully be concerned about Tesla AP/NoAP but it is the best, by far, that I have seen of such systems.

To be honest my over a decade experience with Toyota, VW and Audi radar cruise has been far less eventful than just the 3-4weeks and 5000miles we cruised around in Teslas. I'd still get a Tesla though despite this, but I also think there probably should be some regulatory oversight to enforce a certain level of performance prior to allowing the general public to be exposed to the potential risks. Not just for Tesla, but in particular for any lesser standard manufacturer that is trying to sell a half baked feature for a quick buck.

Technically, given that currently Teslas are not brake by wire yet, the alternative to a dash kill switch would be that serious braking event should deactivate all autopilot functions (bar maybe obstacle avoidance and brake force assist). That way you would have at least one way to override everything else and come to a safe stop.

On that subject: Teslas don't like two foot driving, which is actually essential for track driving. My son had this problem whilst chasing down two Porsches through the Redwoods near Santa Cruz, CA, in a MYP.

 

[Stuck4ger]

I get that people don't want FSD to stop for them. I just want the choice of actually stopping.

NHTSA forced Tesla to make FSD do a full stop at stop signs. I just keep my foot on the accelerator and tap it when I’m ready to proceed with my “California stop”. It doesn’t take much effort and works fine.

 

[Stuck4ger]

To be honest my over a decade experience with Toyota, VW and Audi radar cruise has been far less eventful than just the 3-4weeks and 5000miles we cruised around in Teslas. …

My experience is a rental Tesla with Autosteer does not compare favorably to my wife’s FSD Tesla as far as comfort, having to pay attention, disengagement, and manual intervention are concerned.

 

[charliemagpie]

We are on the path to a solution, which will probably be solved sometimes next year.

Solved is really a tail of 9's which will continue forever. Humans seek food to survive, AI will forever seek data.

Elon Musk : "V12 will not be Beta"... Does anyone realizes why 12 ?

IMO, it's a child's last pre teenage year.

 

[CoachTerry]

I hope they let me check some box in FSD that says "Stop at stop signs." I know not all of you, heck, most of you, probably don't stop at stop signs and yes, yield signs are underutilized... But, around here, most people stop at stop signs and I don't want some California roll being required for me to comfortably use FSD.

Hope you’re kidding. I love me some California rolls. Only ones that don’t make me fatter.

 

[TyPope]

Hope you’re kidding. I love me some California rolls. Only ones that don’t make me fatter.

I'm not. I get that traffic is different in different parts of the country. If everyone rolls through stop signs, why aren't they just yield signs instead? That way, people unfamiliar with the area will know which stop signs you should always stop at. (The deadly ones)

Just last week, I was driving through my neighborhood and some asshat just rolled through the stop sign to my left and nearly T-boned me. I don't think he even slowed down. Well, I'm sure he spilled his coffee when he braked at the last second. I guess he didn't want to park his Camry under my F-150...

May you never reach an intersection with another one of you at the same time.

 

[CoachTerry]

I'm not. I get that traffic is different in different parts of the country. If everyone rolls through stop signs, why aren't they just yield signs instead? That way, people unfamiliar with the area will know which stop signs you should always stop at. (The deadly ones)

Just last week, I was driving through my neighborhood and some asshat just rolled through the stop sign to my left and nearly T-boned me. I don't think he even slowed down. Well, I'm sure he spilled his coffee when he braked at the last second. I guess he didn't want to park his Camry under my F-150...

May you never reach an intersection with another one of you at the same time.

I always drive safely. I look all ways as I approach and stop completely if another vehicle is even close. But if I’m the only vehicle in sight, I slow roll.

 

[MEDICALJMP]

I always drive safely.

Surveys show that the average driver says they are an above average driver. Hmm.

Please stay in California, Maryland or where ever I am not. I prefer my cars dent free.

 

[Crissa]

They have not 'explicitly coded' anything for image recognition in a long time, but they have extensively trained (i.e., labeled and then done reinforcement learning) all aspects related to video for a long time. What they are doing now is training the navigation parts of the puzzle, so someone still has to do the reinforcement part (what is right behavior vs. wrong behavior) rather than using heuristics (i.e., rules, presumably in code). Rules allow the system to tell us, for example, that the vehicle is changing lanes to maintain speed, so all of that interaction will be gone forever. If FSD does something, whether or not you like it, you will have no explanation (and will never get one). On the other hand, instead of having to teach it to recognize, and respond to, warning signs (a pet peeve of mine), it will be trained to slow down, for example when on windy mountain roads, or around schools, which is the right thing to do. There are pluses and minuses. It would be a good idea to watch @aidrivr's YouTube video as he did a good job of articulating many of these things, though he got the reinforcement learning thing wrong (imho).

No.

Not having lives of code telling it to do specific actions is not the same as not having lives of code telling us what it's doing.

You just have to code that behavior in. Just like you train for the actions.

How it chooses those things is a black box, but teaching it to do them is not a black box, and hence, you can teach it to tell us what it's doing.

For decades all my cars came with cruise control, and as long as I was on a flat road without traffic they worked ok, but on hills they were psychotic. Maybe they still are, but I stopped using them.

I have very specifically always nixed purchase of cars with bad cruise control. Why would I want a car with a useless feature I'm ostensibly paying for?

I've driven Chevys and Fords who would love 5mph going up hill and the Chevy would downshift just at the top and vroom over the peak... It added extra work as I'd have to always fiddle with its setting as we went up and down. I had it by the end of the thousand mile road trip, but, man, rentals...

-Crissa

 

[FutureBoy]

On Elon's FSD Beta 12 demo drive he talked about something interesting that could have implications for Cybertruck.

Now one of the interesting things about pure AI driving is that it actually doesn't need a map at all. So we could delete the navigation system. Simply give it a GPS point and say, "Get to this GPS point somehow. We are not going to tell you how". You could say like, "You see that building in the distance? Go there." And it would do that even with no.... Now it might make some, you know, go down a road that is a dead end and then have to reverse out. But it would basically be able to do what a human would do. Where if you said, "Please go to"... Point at something and say go there.

So now it's going into the parking lot. There is no explicit map of the parking lot. So now it is just trying to get to a GPS point.

Queued up here:




So why do I mention this in the context of the Cybertruck. Imagine that you are out in the wilds and want to go somewhere. Ideally you would have a navigation system that has backroads, trails, etc. But what if you are off the mapped trails. Or say, you are out on the prairie of the midwest. You could have GPS coordinates for locations of interest like that fishing hole you enjoy. It would be nice to just tell the Cybertruck to take me to this GPS or to that location over there.

A cool additional feature would be if the CT could remember the routes you have taken and prefer those. Or even act like ants that tend to optimize their initial random paths by shortcutting tight corners over time. So if there is an established path, follow that. But if no path, search for a passable approach.

Now ideally, we will have the option of mobile Starlink. So in emergencies we could say, take me to the closest hospital and let the Cybertruck figure out how to get there across the wilds. And hopefully, the navigation system can have an upgrade to topographical maps and satellite views so the truck can predict better paths (not over cliffs, through rivers, or impassable forest).

 

[Jhodgesatmb]

No.

Not having lives of code telling it to do specific actions is not the same as not having lives of code telling us what it's doing.

You just have to code that behavior in. Just like you train for the actions.

How it chooses those things is a black box, but teaching it to do them is not a black box, and hence, you can teach it to tell us what it's doing.


I have very specifically always nixed purchase of cars with bad cruise control. Why would I want a car with a useless feature I'm ostensibly paying for?

I've driven Chevys and Fords who would love 5mph going up hill and the Chevy would downshift just at the top and vroom over the peak... It added extra work as I'd have to always fiddle with its setting as we went up and down. I had it by the end of the thousand mile road trip, but, man, rentals...

-Crissa

I suppose you are right about teaching an ML system to say what it has done. I was thinking that an ML system cannot explain what it has done, but on thinking about it it isn’t doing that now.

here is a related question I was thinking about today. Right now we have a few settings for FSD, such as following distance, use posted speed limits, chill/average/aggressive style. I always assumed that these settings were possible because of coded logic but are you saying that there would be choices of which NN to use, because that makes some sense to me.

Sorry but my training in AI is on the symbolic and knowledge-based reasoning side of things.

 

[FutureBoy]

I suppose you are right about teaching an ML system to say what it has done. I was thinking that an ML system cannot explain what it has done, but on thinking about it it isn’t doing that now.

here is a related question I was thinking about today. Right now we have a few settings for FSD, such as following distance, use posted speed limits, chill/average/aggressive style. I always assumed that these settings were possible because of coded logic but are you saying that there would be choices of which NN to use, because that makes some sense to me.

Sorry but my training in AI is on the symbolic and knowledge-based reasoning side of things.

You can just add the various settings as separate inputs to the NN. But then you also have to match the training data to the setting you are training on. So for instance, on following distance, you would still train on the same input data as before but for each training example you would have to tell the NN which setting would be set for that example. And you would need enough examples of each specific combination of settings to fully allow the NN to distinguish between each setting and everything else that is happening in the data.

Much like when Elon told us that Tesla had to go find enough examples of drivers that actually STOP at stop signs to train the NN to do that, you would also need examples of people that follow at the specified distance setting that is being requested.

Now you don't need to feed the NN hours long video of the perfect drive in one fell swoop. The NN is looking at a relatively small window of time for each decision. So for instance stop signs, you only need to have a library of data examples that start a little before the stop signs are visible and continuing to just after the stop signs become irrelevant (or there abouts). So for stop sign stopping, you can train that specific behavior outside the other libraries of actions.

And much like the settings you are asking about, the international / regional traffic rules are similar to settings. So the NN needs to have an input stream of where it is and what traffic rules apply. For each different set of traffic rules it needs to know about, a whole new set of training data needs to be collected and trained on.

 

[CyberGus]

...Imagine that you are out in the wilds and want to go somewhere. Ideally you would have a navigation system that has backroads, trails, etc. But what if you are off the mapped trails. Or say, you are out on the prairie of the midwest. You could have GPS coordinates for locations of interest like that fishing hole you enjoy. It would be nice to just tell the Cybertruck to take me to this GPS or to that location over there.

A cool additional feature would be if the CT could remember the routes you have taken and prefer those. Or even act like ants that tend to optimize their initial random paths by shortcutting tight corners over time. So if there is an established path, follow that. But if no path, search for a passable approach.

Now ideally, we will have the option of mobile Starlink. So in emergencies we could say, take me to the closest hospital and let the Cybertruck figure out how to get there across the wilds. And hopefully, the navigation system can have an upgrade to topographical maps and satellite views so the truck can predict better paths (not over cliffs, through rivers, or impassable forest).

Yeah, the Tesla nav loses it's mind when connectivity drops. This is not going to work for Cybertruck.

They need to cache the maps, and remember your GPS tracking data, so that you can at least backtrack to where you DID have connectivity.

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