PowerShare vs Powerwall questions

[Cyberus]

I’m considering the costs of installing PowerShare vs Powerwall.

Powershare install quote is $4k + equipment

Powerwall install cost is $6k + equipment

I was told that the Powerwall install contains all the components needed for PowerShare, other than the universal charger, which I already purchased.

Anyone have a Powerwall system that is currently using PowerShare with your CT?

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[Woodrick]

A Powerwall and Powershare provide different functionality and have different specifications.

What do you want? Neither, by themselves, will probably get you what you think you want.

 

[Cyber_95]

A PW system (with or without PV panels) qualifies for federal (and certain state) tax credit incentives. PS does not.

PW (with PV panels) will allow you to run completely off the grid and allow the PV panels to re-charge the system when the grid is down. PS with PV will not recharge while the grid is down.

You have to do the math for your personal situation, but the tax benefits with the PW may offset the added cost, while providing additional functionality down the road if you have or add PV panels.

 

[akenis]

I’m considering the costs of installing PowerShare vs Powerwall.

Powershare install quote is $4k + equipment

Powerwall install cost is $6k + equipment

I was told that the Powerwall install contains all the components needed for PowerShare, other than the universal charger, which I already purchased.

Anyone have a Powerwall system that is currently using PowerShare with your CT?

The "Any Power Wall + Any Charger" version of PowerShare is not functional at this time. Tesla says a software update is coming later this year to enable it.

The "3V Gateway+ UWC" version of PowerShare is functional now.

Considerations:

1. Either method involves installing a Gateway. That's the bulk of installation costs.

2. 3V gateway is about $800-900 more than the bare bones Gateway 3, gateway 2 that is used in PowerWall installations. Backup switch, if approved in your area is even cheaper.

3. 3V gateway is more expensive because it has a heavy neutral forming transformer and site monitoring electronics. For PowerWall installations, the PW is the transformer and brains of the operation. You can add a PW to a 3V Gateway, but it requires disabling the stuff that makes it more expensive than Gateway 3.

4. Consult a tax Pro. But I believe that if a PowerWall is installed, the entire cost of the project is eligible for a 30% tax credit.

5. With PW, backup is seamless. Truck alone has delay even if it is plugged in. When truck isn't home, you'd have no backup. For prolonged outages, house would have no power when you drive the truck to a functional charger to fill up.

6. PW allows for time shifting if you have Time of Use (TOU) rate plan. For me that means I can charge my vehicles and PW at night for 10 cents per kwHr. I can then use the PW during peak hours instead of paying 18 cents per kwHr (15 cents for flat rate plan). The truck could offer VTH (vehicle to home) capability in the future allowing it to also power the house when you choose. Truck is essentially 9 Powerwalls!

7. PW would eliminate those frequent really short outages. Maybe surges that can damage your home electronics? No need to reset network and clocks!

8. Adding solar later is super easy and economical with PW. The panels just plug into it.

9. If you do have solar, having a PW allows you to generate power if the grid goes down. (For most people with Solar and no battery, it doesn't work when power is out).

For me, the advantages of adding PowerWall is a no brainer. The questions surrounding how to do that are troublesome:

1. Get 3V gateway or cheaper Gateway 3.

2. Can $2,500 voucher be used to offset cost of a different gateway and/or a PowerWall?

3. Hurricane season is coming. Is it a risk to waiting for PowerShare to be functional w/o 3V gateway. Permitting may take longer if battery is involved also.

 

[Woodrick]

A PW system (with or without PV panels) qualifies for federal (and certain state) tax credit incentives. PS does not.

PW (with PV panels) will allow you to run completely off the grid and allow the PV panels to re-charge the system when the grid is down. PS with PV will not recharge while the grid is down.

You have to do the math for your personal situation, but the tax benefits with the PW may offset the added cost, while providing additional functionality down the road if you have or add PV panels.

If I'm not mistaken, your statements are not entirely correct, or slightly misleading in this thread.

Very specifically a single Powerwall with any amount of solar probably will not provide enough power to allow you to run off of the grid all night. The system has to be sized.

 

[akenis]

If I'm not mistaken, your statements are not entirely correct, or slightly misleading in this thread.

Very specifically a single Powerwall with any amount of solar probably will not provide enough power to allow you to run off of the grid all night. The system has to be sized.

PW is 13.5 KWHr. Looking at my bills from before I got the Tesla, I used 30-40 kwHr a day. So I would think that 13.5 kwHr would go a long way.

Or are you talking about generating enough excess solar to be able to charge the PW?

Or are you talking about those that have a system not set up to charge battery from the grid? I think that is part of some AHJ's net metering contracts. Don't really understand that, but I think there are ways around it.

 

[Cyberus]

Thanks for the replies.
I’m not really looking for an ‘off grid’ solution.

The tax credits with the PW for me is what’s appealing. I can get a PW, which has the equipment necessary to run Poweshare with the CT, for only a few thousand more than it would cost to only install the PowerShare equipment.

 

[Crissa]

If I'm not mistaken, your statements are not entirely correct, or slightly misleading in this thread.

Very specifically a single Powerwall with any amount of solar probably will not provide enough power to allow you to run off of the grid all night. The system has to be sized.

C'mon, dude. I run off an Ecoflow Delta watching Netflix all night. Don't make such ridiculous statements.

-Crissa

 

[Ward L]

I got a PW quote of $18k (equip+install) and decided to hold off the PW.

 

[akenis]

I got a PW quote of $18k (equip+install) and decided to hold off the PW.

You can add it later. It just plugs into the Gateway. I think they're like $8500. I wouldn't pay more than $1000 + permitting fees for installation.

Consider doing it this year so the whole project qualifies for tax credit?

 

[Woodrick]

PW is 13.5 KWHr. Looking at my bills from before I got the Tesla, I used 30-40 kwHr a day. So I would think that 13.5 kwHr would go a long way.

Or are you talking about generating enough excess solar to be able to charge the PW?

Or are you talking about those that have a system not set up to charge battery from the grid? I think that is part of some AHJ's net metering contracts. Don't really understand that, but I think there are ways around it.

If you use 30-40kWh a day, and then adding 30 kWH, then a 13.5 kWh Powerwall may only last a few hours. And dependent on the load, not even power the house.

A single Powerwall provides a specific amount of storage and a specific amount of power. Most homes require multiple Powerwalls for their needs. That could be because their power requirements are more than a single Powerwall can provide, or that a single Powerwall doesn't provide enough backup time.

But back to the OPs question. He was comparing prices between Powershare and a single Powerwall, without any other details.
My point is that there are LOT more details. The first being "Will EITHER of them work?"

I know in my house, what it would take. I'd have to determine what loads that I want to protect and isolate those to a switch, probably in the Powerwall. If I wanted to protect the entire house, I couldn't with Powershare and it would take at least two Powerwalls (probably beyond 4) to even think about it.
I have 400A service that it split into 2, 200A panels. I've got a very large A/C and a large one and a smaller one to power. I don

And it all comes back to what you want to do. Everything is seldom a possibility.

I don't know what your loads are. I then don't know what your requirements are.

 

[Woodrick]

C'mon, dude. I run off an Ecoflow Delta watching Netflix all night. Don't make such ridiculous statements.

-Crissa

Good for you!

Plug it in at my house and its toast in not too long, either from not being able to supply the power or the battery draining.

Everyone's usage requirements are different.

Santa Cruz seems to be a little warm today at 82. But the rest of your week looks to be a pleasant low 70s.
Fo me, things have cooled down since the last few days, my temps are also in the low 70s. But those are my lows. I'm in the 90s every day.

We have different environments. My house has different requirements than yours.

If I don't know your requirements, I can't make recommendations for you.

As you'll see in this thread, we don't know either of the people's requirements.

About all I can do is warn people that the minimum may not work.

Powershare is NOT a plug and play experience. You may have noticed that from a LOT of people are getting the $2500 credit messages, because Powershare is not implementable for THEM.

I can watch Netflix all night as well, if it is at night and I'm outside, on most any of my portable battery sets.

And while my generator slightly oversized, I do have a 60kW sitting outside to handle the whole house. I've got a couple of 1500W UPSs to handle the data center, and 4kWH battery bank and 3kW inverter to handle the radios and TVs on the wall behind me.
The data center only has minutes of batteries, as I need, the radios have hours or even days if the generator runs out of gas or fails.

The builder put 400A service into this house before I ever moved into it.

Yes, I know, I'm a power hog. I am quite familiar with what the requirements can be.

And if you can watch Netflix all night long and be comfortable and have everything that you want, that's truly great for you.

 

[Crissa]

It was over 90F today. I live in the mountains, not the city, of Santa Cruz. It was 70F on the beach.

When you install a Powerwall, the circuits it's protecting are selected then. It's not just plugged into a whole house unless the house draws less than the output. And I don't know about your house, but mine can't draw 9.6kW of power, let alone continuously.

Even AC doesn't use power continuously. The fans and pumps cycle on and off. And thermal dynamics being what they are, it's best to design a house to have a thermal mass so it doesn't need constant, emergency heating and cooling.

It's all about balancing that.

And I say that as now, the power is out, and has been for an hour and a half, and I'm on battery, and PG&E says the power won't be on for another two hours. The house isn't going to suddenly heat up because it's placed in the shadow of the trees, and I cooled it down last night to have the thermal mass to make it through the day.

The vast majority of houses will do just fine on a Powerwall. Especially one that has its own island of solar panels to back it up, and that means Powershare is only for when things get dire and so it doesn't need to be so 'automatic' other than having it plugged in.

-Crissa

 

[Cyber_95]

If I'm not mistaken, your statements are not entirely correct, or slightly misleading in this thread.

Very specifically a single Powerwall with any amount of solar probably will not provide enough power to allow you to run off of the grid all night. The system has to be sized.

How much energy someone's home uses at night is entirely based on their own circumstances. However, a PW has ~13kWh of power. CT can provide a variable amount of it's capacity for PS to supplement PW. Say, for discussion purposes you allocate 70% to PS = 84 kWh. 84+13=97 kWh total available for backup power via PS + PW. I would find it hard to believe any normal single family residential home would use that much power overnight.

 

[mongo]

How much energy someone's home uses at night is entirely based on their own circumstances. However, a PW has ~13kWh of power. CT can provide a variable amount of it's capacity for PS to supplement PW. Say, for discussion purposes you allocate 70% to PS = 84 kWh. 84+13=97 kWh total available for backup power via PS + PW. I would find it hard to believe any normal single family residential home would use that much power overnight.

Just for clarity, Powershare has 11.5kW of power output and most of the truck's pack worth of energy(kWh).
One Powerwall 3 (off grid & solar) can output up to 15.4 kW and adds 13.5kWh of energy.

Our consumption was ~60kWh/day before taking delivery of Cybertruck, so averaging a 2.5 kW power draw. With appropriate loads turned off, we run fine, but warm (no A/C), off a (thirsty) 5.5kW continuous 8.5kW surge genset.

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