Profit protection against resellers/scalpers.

[Deleted member 3316]

Huh?
Loss leader is selling something below market in order to later sell something higher. Ink jet printers... Because can sell inkjet cartridges. The printer is a loss leader....
Tesla selling early vehicles at prices below what line jumpers would pay is not loss leader.

Not talking about Tesla in the context of responding to that red herring of a post.

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[Deleted member 3316]

The reservation list is for purchase at minimum MSRP. These scarce earlier vehicles are on a descending MSRP, a separate group. The reason for reverse auction is to prevent bidding/ not an auction at all.
Scenario: 1st vehicle has MSRP 200k, no one buys it. After a period it drops 5k and Jay Leno buys it. Because he wants a single owner cybertruck really badly...
Second vehicle is now offered for 195k and 3 more are sold. Because idiots won the lottery.
Then price drops again because there are very few people who will pay that much if they can get it for less if they wait. At some point the price is at 95k and 5000 people will take it.... Then Tesla starts delivering on reservation list simultaneously delivering at minimum MSRP simultaneously with the descending MSRP group with the end of descending MSRP at some point. Say within 10k or something of minimum MSRP.

I still don’t see how this provides more utility than regular auctions held periodically. It creates a ceiling price rather than the one-up-manship bravado of the auction process. This one-up-manship is transient and volatile, I say let Tesla be the beneficiary.

It also directly dishonours the reservation list, by prioritising early production to those with the most access to capital.

 

[Dids]

I still don’t see how this provides more utility than regular auctions held periodically. It creates a ceiling price rather than the one-up-manship bravado of the auction process. This one-up-manship is transient and volatile, I say let Tesla be the beneficiary.

It also directly dishonours the reservation list, by prioritising early production to those with the most access to capital.

Ah. Yeah. It's a capitalist economy. Btw. I don't think flipping/ scalping is an issue anyone cares about or even should care about. This whole exercise of thought was only a way to waste time.

 

[Deleted member 3316]

Maybe the SEC should implement a mandatory hold for 12-18 months for your stocks purchases? ? Or a lease to own model? ?

Different context and completely different reason for capital allocation.

 

[Ogre]

I can just imagine what a field day the haters would have if Tesla were to start chasing resellers in court.

 

[Deleted member 3316]

Ah. Yeah. It's a capitalist economy. Btw. I don't think flipping/ scalping is an issue anyone cares about or even should care about. This whole exercise of thought was only a way to waste time.

Lols, the capitalist economy (or socialist) in isolation is an illusion. One cannot exist without the other and dysfunctional societies have an imbalance of the two.

Cognitive dissonance on this idea is the basis of the tension in this discussion

I see the OP as the (im)perfect example of an equitable interplay within the codependent dichotomy of socialism and capitalism.

Reservation list - socialist organisation of fairness and equity. (Justifiable pejorative derision - Naivety)

Auction process - free market capitalism, limiting access to those most capable of consolidating wealth. (Justifyiable pejorative derision - greedy/Dishonesty)

If you to purport to only support one side then only play honestly in that paradigm. The reason the supporters of scalpers don’t object to the reservation list is because they can cheat it.

 

[Deleted member 3316]

I can just imagine what a field day the haters would have if Tesla were to start chasing resellers in court.

It would be the resellers chasing Tesla for not transferring ownership, hobbling the vehicle. Then they would have to justify breach of contract and parasitic profiteering.

 

[HaulingAss]

what exactly was ford’s cost to produce, on a normalized all-units basis?

you have that data?

do you also have figures for what corporate good will Ford’s assigning to the Lightning project as a loss-leader?

The specific figures are not released by Ford and they are constantly changing too, but we can make educated guesses, based on the financial data Ford does release, and their comments about financials, that are close enough to ensure statements like the one you refer to are true and accurate.

The second part of your question about how much goodwill value Ford is assigning to the Lightning project as a loss-leader is mostly non-sensical because I don't need to assign goodwill value to make an educated guess how much it costs Ford to make each one. Ford doesn't set the MSRP based on how much it costs to build, it's primarily set at what they think market value is. In other words, how high they can price it and still sell the entire production run. It would look very bad if they set the price too high and had to offer big discounts just to get rid of them. As it turns out, they set it too low initially and inflation of parts and raw materials, combined with more demand than they anticipated at those price points, caused them to hike the prices rather dramatically.

Part of the reason Ford is willing to take a loss on their EV's is because it avoids them having to buy regulatory credits that offset their profitable gas vehicle sales. When Ford has to buy regulatory credits on the open market, they are increasing the market price of those regulatory credits which is helping their competitors become more competitive. For example, Tesla has sold enough regulatory credits to legacy auto manufacturers that it's paying for all their new factories. That makes it more difficult for Ford to compete with them. And that's just one reason of many that Ford is willing to sell limited numbers of EV's at a loss.

Another factor is that making EV's prevents Ford share price from cratering more than it is. It creates the false narrative that Ford will be a competitive player in EV's based on the announced pricing of their EV's. The prices have to appear competitive or investors will flee, leaving nothing to support the share price. Ford management is compensated with stock based compensation so management has a real self-interest in making it look like Ford is still in the game.

Who hurt you?

What is it about hearing that someone likes a non-Tesla vehicle that prompts this type of automatic, non-sequitur, self-masturbatory, “lesson”-giving on the superiority of the CT?

No one hurt me, not sure where you got that idea.

It seems your reactionary comment was precipitated simply by my claim that the Cybertruck will be far superior to the Lightning. My comment is not "self-masturbatory", it was informed by what we know about the Cybertruck, it's announced specifications, range, towing and cargo capacity, size of the bed, etc. Also, by the obvious superiority Tesla has over Ford when it comes to the software that runs the truck, the user interface, the battery management software, the over-the-air update capabilties of the entire software ecosystem within the vehicle, not just the infotanment system, etc. Additionally, the materials and construction of the truck, the dent and scratch resistance, the stiffness of the chassis compared to a ladder frame, the automatically adjustable suspension and ride height, the lack of fragile paint, etc.

While it's true we don't know everything about the Cybertruck, it's also clear that we have a solid foundation with which to say it will be superior in all the ways listed above and many ways not even mentioned above (like the nationwide fast charging network). We also know about Tesla's superior cost structure when it comes to being able to manufacture in volume and provide good value to vehicle buyers.

So, I don't think I was jumping the gun by stating the obvious - that the Cybertruck will be far superior to the Lightning. We don't need a stretch of the imagination to see that.

If nothing else, can we dial it down until the truck actually exists?

Dial it down? This forum exists for people who have ordered a Cybertruck to share our enthusiasm and questions with one another. The only way I can make sense of your emotionally charged objection is one of two things:

1) You believe the Cybertruck is vaporware that will not have any of the announced specifications or will not be delivered to owners. That the basic specifications will be so different from what was announced it might even be inferior to the Lightning. That makes zero sense.

2) That you have buyer's remorse. Maybe on-the-road charging is not the experience you anticipated based on Ford's glowing marketing and extensive public relations releases. Or maybe the range or Vehicle to Grid feature didn't work out how you expected. Whatever is causing your upset, I don't think it's because you don't believe the announced specs of the Cybertruck.

Even if one or two specs of the Cybertruck are slightly less than expected, which would surprise me, I don't think that changes the observation that the Ford is measurably inferior in many respects. I'm sorry if I offended your truck, but I don't think it makes a lot of sense to tip toe through the tulips rather than calling it how I see it.

 

[Deleted member 3316]

I injected that not only is money made by scalpers not stolen from Tesla

Which is so diabolically stupid and unjustifiable, it borders on futile to interact with.

I’ll try again, what value does a scalper inject into the transaction between a manufacturer with a retail presence and an end user?

 

[HaulingAss]

What is the difference to the market or Tesla if it’s a serial scalper or thousands of individuals doing it once?
There’s no difference at all.

I don’t believe the protections in place are sufficient considering the unprecedented demand.

Who do you think the queue jumpers would prefer to purchase their Cybertruck from;

1. Some random on the internet that is providing no value add for the expense?
   OR
2. From Tesla through a transparent auction process?

Tesla prevents serial scalping because it negatively impacts the customer experience.

The difference between whether it's a serial scalper or thousands of individuals re-selling one vehicle each is that it's very easy to identify a serial scalper but literally impossible to determine the intent of an individual who buys a Cybertruck and immediately decides to sell it.

Sure, there may be people ahead of your reservation who bought with the intent to re-sell, but I don't know how to prevent a small percentage of all reservations from doing exactly that without imposing burdensome restrictions on legitimate purchasers.

In the end, the world is an imperfect place and we make do with what we have.

 

[Deleted member 3316]

And besides all this doesn't actually matter to you since CT not going to Australia for awhile. Or! Maybe it is. Maybe why giga Shanghai is getting 9k ton press

It matters greatly because the sales strategy in the USA sets the precedent for the rest of the world. If rampant scalping prevails the introductory price to Australia will be exorbitant.

I believe an auction process will ensure price volatility potential will benefit Tesla and transparently demonstrate the market adjustment for queue jumpers.

 

[Deleted member 3316]

Sure, there may be people ahead of your reservation who bought with the intent to re-sell, but I don't know how to prevent a small percentage of all reservations from doing exactly that without imposing burdensome restrictions on legitimate purchasers.

Please see title post on this thread….

 

[SparkChaser]

So imagine for me;

If you were a carpenter hand making beautiful chairs that you spend hours making each one, selling online with minimal sales overhead and global reach. Your product is exquisite and receive so many orders that it was years worth of work so you create a wait list.
You sell them at a modest profit, but multiple people are actually drop shipping your product making 40% more off your work by fabricating scarcity.

Would you be ok with that?
Do you honestly think that’s fair?

I think it’s indefensible dishonesty.

Genuine buyers cannot purchase directly from you because of the waitlist but the chairs are so nice they’ll pay significantly more for one to get it in their home.

All of this said by every artist ever. They make a beautiful thing and sell it so they can eat and live and everything else. Someone buys it and, in a few days, gets it recognized as a wonder. They resell that piece for 100's of times what they paid for it and the artist gets ZERO.

 

[cvalue13]

The specific figures are not released by Ford and they are constantly changing too, but we can make educated guesses, based on the financial data Ford does release, and their comments about financials, that are close enough to ensure statements like the one you refer to are true and accurate.

so you don’t know, but reassert that your statement is both true and accurate. Got it.

I don't need to assign goodwill value to make an educated guess how much it costs Ford to make each one.

not the point. For simplicity I over-broadly used the terms “good will” and “loss leader” to make what I thought would be an obvious point: Ford “losing money” wrt MSRP vs production cost per unit is probably not counting all the buckets of value Ford attributes to bringing the lightning to market.

you then go on to list a few (not all!) of the other values Ford attributes to the Lightning.

so we agree.

No one hurt me, not sure where you got that idea.

It seems your reactionary comment was precipitated simply by my claim that the Cybertruck will be far superior to the Lightning.

no, chief - it’s because the “claim that the Cybertruck will be far superior to the Lightning” seemed like such a bizarre non-sequitur, as if you have Tesla-Tourette’s

@greggertruck : “resale premiums on Lightning’s have come way down”

@cvalue13 : “agreed, I mean I like my truck for $69K after incentives and at 3%, but raising to $89K with no incentives and >5% interest has really freed up inventory”

butting in, @‘ing me @HaulingAss : “the Cybertruck will be far superior to the Lightning”

Dial it down? This forum exists for people who have ordered a Cybertruck to share our enthusiasm and questions with one another.

so does that mean that on any given thread regardless of the content of the then-current discussion, you plan to just @ people with non-sequiter Tesla-Tourette’s?….

I don't think that changes the observation that the Ford is measurably inferior in many respects. I'm sorry if I offended your truck, but I don't think it makes a lot of sense to tip toe through the tulips rather than calling it how I see it.

… I’ll take that as a ‘yes’

but since you insist on measuring truck lengths:

you’ve got me all wrong. I can love my lightning, and the idea of my forthcoming CT, simultaneously. I do currently like my lightning more than my CT, though, because the Lightning exists.

I just have no instinct for this brand of idolization you ooze; you talk about trucks with the valence that idealistic French teens talk about competing political ideologies.

Sometimes I wonder if what I’m missing - why it is I don’t care to schoolyard truck-measure with such fervor - is a fat, over-extended stake in TSLA?

Watching you non-sequitur style sh*t on Ford and force accolades on Tesla gives off the same sort of vibes as when you’re at a sports bar having a good time then one guy in the bar gets wildly emotional over the game… takes a moment before you realize that poor guy’s just got (too much) money on the game.

 

[JBee]

Lol fanboiz gotta be what they gotta be.

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