Sandy's rant. lol. I love this man.

Jhodgesatmb

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I love Sandy but he's completely wrong on this.

Tesla is not being "investigated by Congress". A pair of US Senators formally asked the Federal Trade Commission to determine if Tesla has been marketing FSD deceptively. This is reasonable, given how Elon has been significantly over-optimistic about FSD's capabilities and timeline of delivery. This has nothing to do with the technology, only in how it is being presented to the public.

Also, NHTSA is not investigating Tesla for fires. It's investigating 11 crashes since 2018 into emergency vehicles while on Autopilot. It's a serious issue, but it seems to me that any L2 autonomous vehicle would have similar results.
Are you contesting that it all seems politically motivated? The NHTSA isn’t going to learn anything other than that the drivers were at fault, and FSD capabilities are clearly published on Tesla websites so that problem has no legs.
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HaulingAss

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I love Sandy but he's completely wrong on this.

Tesla is not being "investigated by Congress". A pair of US Senators formally asked the Federal Trade Commission to determine if Tesla has been marketing FSD deceptively. This is reasonable, given how Elon has been significantly over-optimistic about FSD's capabilities and timeline of delivery. This has nothing to do with the technology, only in how it is being presented to the public.
The litmus test in whether Elon has done anything wrong in terms of being over-optimistic on the timeline for development of FSD is whether or not he believed what he said. That's right, to slap his hand regulators would have to have proof that Elon didn't believe what he was saying. Personally, I think he believed everything he said and was speaking honestly (if not a little hopefully). That's not a crime. But, even if he didn't believe what he was saying, he knows the rules better than I do and is not about to ever leave a record that he was not being honest.

The request by the Senators is misguided because it doesn't stand a chance in hell of accomplishing anything but being a thorn in Elon's side. And that's not how formal investigations are supposed to be used.

Also, NHTSA is not investigating Tesla for fires. It's investigating 11 crashes since 2018 into emergency vehicles while on Autopilot. It's a serious issue, but it seems to me that any L2 autonomous vehicle would have similar results.
Not only would any L2 vehicle possibly crash into emergency vehicles parked on the side of the road, human drivers do that all the time without any assistance at all! It's actually very common. What's weird about the investigation is a whole bunch of the cases involved a drunk driver. Drunk drivers do not need assistance to have this kind of crash. Yes, they were drunk! No investigation needed. It's dumb.
 

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Are you contesting that it all seems politically motivated? The NHTSA isn’t going to learn anything other than that the drivers were at fault, and FSD capabilities are clearly published on Tesla websites so that problem has no legs.
Are you suggesting that the government is trying to bring down Tesla? If so, they’re doing a lousy job.

There are multiple threads on the TMC forums with angry Tesla owners advocating a class-action suit over FSD. I don’t think it’s fraud, but one could certainly argue that Tesla failed to make good on their promises.
 

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Are you suggesting that the government is trying to bring down Tesla? If so, they’re doing a lousy job.
It's not "the government" it's individuals in government. I believe they think they can help level the playing field between their GM and Ford buddies and Tesla. But it wouldn't be the first time Congressmen had misguided goals that they failed miserably at. Or, maybe they really are ignorant enough to believe the technology is a legitimate threat and that Tesla is mismanaging it, I'm not sure which it is. But, I can assure you, Tesla is investigating their own technology for safety more effectively than any government agency is capable of.

There are multiple threads on the TMC forums with angry Tesla owners advocating a class-action suit over FSD. I don’t think it’s fraud, but one could certainly argue that Tesla failed to make good on their promises.
What I see is a bunch of non-owners and some pretend owners trying to stir up resentment with limited successes of ensnaring a few actual owners into their whirlpool of idiocy. In America you can sue for anything you want. That doesn't mean you stand a chance of winning.

A lawyer can argue anything he or she wants but I don't think it would be productive to argue that Tesla has broken any promises. Because they never promised it would be done by any specific deadline. And, in fact, it would have been non-believable to anyone with a clue if they HAD promised it by an iron-clad date. Because, obviously, no one could know exactly when they might succeed. All they have done is made best-guess estimates as to when they think it MIGHT be done. Anyone with half a brain can see that Elon's statements were his best guess, no matter how much confidence he displayed that he could meet those timelines.

It's absolutely hilarious and sad at the same time to watch these people play the victim here. Oh! The sense of entitlement they display. They portray themselves as so stupid that they can't even understand there was and is risk involved in terms of success and when it might happen. They pretend to be so gullible that they didn't know it was dependent upon the development working out. Nobody promised them anything except that they would give it their best shot and they were confident they would succeed. That's not a crime and it doesn't leave a very big opening for a winning lawsuit. They are wasting their time because they can have a refund any time they want. And that is all any court would ever grant them, best case scenario. They can already get that without having to even go to court. That's how I know talk of a lawsuit is simply another attack on Tesla to try to tarnish their reputation and hopefully scare away their customers.

Good luck with that because Tesla has more people who want to be their customers than they know what to do with. That's what happens when you offer the kind of real value that Tesla does.
 
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Jhodgesatmb

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Are you suggesting that the government is trying to bring down Tesla? If so, they’re doing a lousy job.

There are multiple threads on the TMC forums with angry Tesla owners advocating a class-action suit over FSD. I don’t think it’s fraud, but one could certainly argue that Tesla failed to make good on their promises.
I do not give our government that much credit, but I 'do' give lobbyists that much credit, and I do see the current administration playing favorites with the big auto companies. It doesn't make sense at all, and i appreciate Sandy Munro's anger because I am angry too. He has a much bigger podium than me (I have no podium at all).

I'd like to go on record saying that i have been disappointed with Tesla regarding FSD. I think they have been honest but when we bought our M3 I really expected the full FSD feature set during the time a person would normally own a car, and for a good portion of that time. Here we are already 2 years later and we have only got a few teaser features under beta. I have written to Elon Musk suggesting that Tesla allow FSD owners to transfer their FSD to new vehicle purchases. He never responded. So you could say that I am one of those people. With this as a proviso, and my earlier comments, I do not believe that Tesla or Elon Musk have been disingenuous. We have all of the FSD features that have been released and can use them all we want. It just isn't what I wanted it to be,,, or at least not 'when' I wanted it to be. Buyer beware, right?
 


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I do not give our government that much credit, but I 'do' give lobbyists that much credit, and I do see the current administration playing favorites with the big auto companies. It doesn't make sense at all, and i appreciate Sandy Munro's anger because I am angry too. He has a much bigger podium than me (I have no podium at all).

I'd like to go on record saying that i have been disappointed with Tesla regarding FSD. I think they have been honest but when we bought our M3 I really expected the full FSD feature set during the time a person would normally own a car, and for a good portion of that time. Here we are already 2 years later and we have only got a few teaser features under beta. I have written to Elon Musk suggesting that Tesla allow FSD owners to transfer their FSD to new vehicle purchases. He never responded. So you could say that I am one of those people. With this as a proviso, and my earlier comments, I do not believe that Tesla or Elon Musk have been disingenuous. We have all of the FSD features that have been released and can use them all we want. It just isn't what I wanted it to be,,, or at least not 'when' I wanted it to be. Buyer beware, right?
I can see how folks who paid for FSD then have later sold their Tesla or upgraded to another Tesla might not be very happy. IMO, until the FSD is no longer "beta" and is an actual product, it really should be transferable with no questions asked. The owner pre-paid for something that they never got and never was able to use. Now if you did not buy another Tesla when you sold your previous FSD Tesla, I can also see that as "your out of luck" because the person who purchased your used Tesla should still have the FSD license and can still benefit. Now once the FSD is in its first finished state and no longer beta, I could see this wish like transferable feature also being no longer valid.
 
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I love Sandy but he's completely wrong on this.

Tesla is not being "investigated by Congress". A pair of US Senators formally asked the Federal Trade Commission to determine if Tesla has been marketing FSD deceptively. This is reasonable, given how Elon has been significantly over-optimistic about FSD's capabilities and timeline of delivery. This has nothing to do with the technology, only in how it is being presented to the public.

Also, NHTSA is not investigating Tesla for fires. It's investigating 11 crashes since 2018 into emergency vehicles while on Autopilot. It's a serious issue, but it seems to me that any L2 autonomous vehicle would have similar results.
The point you make about the emergency vehicle collisions is valid. However, it is not what Monroe's point was about. Mr. Monroe is upset about the focus on Tesla being at fault when everything about these collisions, fires, and deaths are driver related, not the technology. Every last one of them is because people who drive the cars are finding ways to bypass the safety devices in order to use the vehicles in dangerous ways. Monroe goes on to explain that he is upset about the undue focus on Tesla specifically despite the comparative numbers of fires, collisions, and deaths in I.C.E. powered vehicles are exponentially greater in number. An analogy would be if the U.S. government chose to focus on Volvo's safety while ignoring and promoting the Yugo. Tesla is a U.S. based company that is international in scope. Ford, GM, and Dodge are all international companies too but they source their materials, their parts, and in several cases their entire vehicles outside the U.S.. Additionally, Dodge is owned by Stellantis which is dutch, italian, etc. in ownership. While you are technically correct about the what (investigation) you missed the why. Tesla is standing up to the bullies and making a superior product no other company compares to in technology, value, safety, or scope. While I feel the Governments (Federal, state, local) should have regulatory powers and use them well, it is wrong to allow industry to manipulate government's power against their competitors. Regulation should be for the citizenry's health, safety, and rights equitably. My point with this last sentence is Government should offer lucrative incentives to promote all Electrification away from fossil fuels and let the corporations figure out how to navigate the laws and incentives to survive.
 

carpedatum

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... it is wrong to allow industry to manipulate government's power against their competitors.
Yes, precisely that, and it makes me think we are at a point of needing investigations into the investigations. This has gone on long enough now, and it would not be the first time that disruption of an industry attracted corrupt minds to defend the status quo. The coal industry leaps to mind.

It smells like people are in each other's pockets here, and if that is the case I want the who, what, and why of it out in the open. I really hope there are decent investigative journalists out there taking a hard look at that. Just normal, valuable government oversight? Maybe. Maybe not.
 


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There are two examples of contradiction in terms in this post:

"decent investigative journalists"

and

"valuable government"
If you believe that neither jouranlism nor government are valuable, then you've not visited a country without either. Or perhaps you think North Korea has it better off?
 

ajdelange

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Government is an evil for sure but nevertheless a necessary evil. North Korea has a government but it is more evil than most in the west.

Problem with journalism is that I can remember the days when there was some integrity. But even so the first thing that comes to mind when I write that is Trollope's "Jupiter". The more things change.....

And no, indeed. I've never been in a country where there is NO government (or never left the airport when I did).
 

CyberGus

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The point you make about the emergency vehicle collisions is valid. However...
I think you're all overlooking the benefits of investigating.

It wasn't the US government that invented Tesla FUD. It's been promoted and propogated by the short sellers, the energy sector, traditional manufacturers and dealers, the automotive press, and pretty much everyone that stands to lose by Tesla winning.

The government entities doing the investigations have no skin in this game. They don't care who wins or loses, they just have one mission in partiular: NHTSA focuses on safety, and FTC on fair trade practices. With all the FUD and coverage of Tesla out there, they really have no choice but to investigate, given all the outcry (fair or not). And since Tesla has no marketing department, they're making no effort to sway public opinion.

Investigations go both ways. While anyone with a platform can make up any story they want, the regulatory agencies will put their conclusions in writing, and must show their work. The most likely result of the NHTSA investigation is full exoneration; they cannot lay blame at the foot of Tesla without doing the same to every other car that has Cruise Control or TACC. The FTC might decide that Tesla's "enthusiasm" for FSD was deceptive, but their power to levy punishment is limited, and would likely just compel a refund to the early adopters (who deserve a refund anyway IMHO).
 

CyberGus

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As for the battery fires, somebody needs to be investigating the crap out of them (EV fires in general, although Tesla is the biggest target).

Obviously gasoline catches fire, but most such fires are the result of collisions and don't occur spontaneously. However, that can and does happen with EVs: in partular, the Chevy Bolt was catching fire while charging, which could be deadly when it happens at night inside the garage.

Almost as bad is the process to extingish a flaming pack: it's takes hours, and 10x the amount of water as an ICE fire. We really need a better way to fight these battery fires before EVs become ubiquitous.
 
 




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