Competition Leaked: 2024 Tacoma Pickup - First Official Look

[BayouCityBob]

EDIT TO ADD: I’d say, too, that to suggest Japanese manufacturers in particular are merely shills for big oil is in my experience pretty laughable; that’s a country with a far more advanced social embodiment of energy conservation and path to sustainability than the US, by several orders of magnitude. You may not agree with their world view on the appropriate strategy toward full electrification, but to suggest they’re disingenuous about it, or merely haven’t thought about it as “good” as you, would both be mostly hubris.

I am suggesting that Japanese manufacturers are merely shills for Japanese manufacturers who lost their way and are competitively disadvantaged because they make a strategically idiotic decision to pursue hydrogen as an alternative to gasoline. I am certain that the reason Toyota is the most aggressive anti-ev lobbyist around the world among all auto OEMs (true) has nothing whatsoever to do with its love for the O&G industry and everything to do with trying to push others onto a playing field where it has a competitive advantage or at least where it is not getting clobbered.

"BTW, I spent 15 years in the O&G industry and don’t see the relevance in your injections on that point."
The relevance is merely to make the point that I do not come to this conclusion based on some dogmatic anti-fossil-fuel perspective.

As you say, it is not the place to hash out the details of this, and it does not really matter. PHEVs are a dead technology in marketshare decline everywhere in the world. Toyota managed to prop up the PHEV technology in the US with giant tax credit (thanks to its #1 advocate in the Senate, Joe Manchin), but it cannot reverse the trend everywhere else.

Of course none of this is salient to the Tacoma which, based on data from Toyota so far, will be just a regular old Tacoma or a regular old light hybrid. There is some indication that a range and performance hobbled EV will be coming in small numbers in 2025, maybe. It has not announced any plans for an "80 mile" PHEV of the sort you have described.

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[Mini2nut]

As a Toyota Tacoma owner for many years I approve. I owned a 2005.5 model and now own a 2019 Tacoma TRD Pro. My Tacoma’s have been outstanding and both have been bulletproof.

I hope Toyota addressed the seating/headroom ergonomics and ditched the 6-speed automatic transmission that is constantly hunting for the right gear. Numerous TSB‘s, a transmission software update, never seemed to fix the root cause.

The styling is evolutionary as expected from conservative Toyota. If it’s not broke don’t fix it. I am afraid Toyota is going to increase Pro pricing from just under $50k to the mid to high $50’s due to the more complex hybrid powertrain.

This leaked pic appears to be the 2024 Tacoma TRD Pro hybrid. I placed a deposit for one very early in the year. It’s my backup plan in case Tesla prices the Cybertruck into the stratosphere.

 

[cvalue13]

PHEVs are a dead technology in marketshare decline everywhere in the world.

may be true, and may mean it’s a losing strategy

my initial comments were limited to pointing generally toward the fact that Toyota didn’t leap into full EV due to a strategy, not “by accident”

from there I generalized past Toyota specifically toward several manufacturers and others that have taken a similar position on strategy of a PHEV transition phase.

you may think the conversation is over and dusted, but reasonable people - all intent on a shared goal - can disagree.

I personally don’t take a hard position either way, as I think it remains to be seen. Not which way it goes, but which way would have been optimal. And in any event, that these strategies may not be mutually exclusive, with the existence of both strategies contributing towards progress - even if as rivals.

presently, neither has gotten across the hump, in terms of total market penetration.

 

[Newton]

the 2023 Toyota bZ4X is an SUV (or whatever they call them now) STARTS at $43,335
I saw 1 today at a charging station, pretty nice.
Id imagine it wouldnt be too hard to make a truck version, for around the same price.
that honestly sounds like a good competitor to me

 

[CyberGus]

"A world 100% full is Priuses is still 100% addicted to oil." - Elon Musk

He's right. Even for plug-in hybrids, many will chose to just fill-er-up and drive.

However, hybrids might prove to be a gateway drug into the EV-hard-stuff for those reticent to dip their toe into the electrified future pool.

 

[Sirfun]

"A world 100% full is Priuses is still 100% addicted to oil." - Elon Musk

He's right. Even for plug-in hybrids, many will chose to just fill-er-up and drive.

However, hybrids might prove to be a gateway drug into the EV-hard-stuff for those reticent to dip their toe into the electrified future pool.

In 2020 we bought a PHEV Chrysler Pacifica. Totally a gateway drug. It's very addicting to be able to plug in your vehicle and drive around town for a month or 2 without having to go to a gas station. But, then when we go on a road trip, have a vehicle that gets 500 miles per tank full, and have the ability to stop at any gas station and get 500 more miles of range in 5 minutes at the pump (usually 20 mins+ with bathroom and food and more like 200 miles). With it being a PHEV we still average 30mpg with a minivan because of regen.
Personally I think it's not good to have 2 camps arguing with each other, all in on ICE or EV. Instead of making laws that they will ban all ICE engines, they should start with All vehicles are required to have regen and batteries. Regen is huge!

 

[shaneaus]

So, I'm not going to bother clicking on a link unless there is a summary in the op below the link. Secondly, this does not appear to be an EV ... so come I don't understand the word competition. Just looks like some clickbait to me. If I wanted news about gas operated trucks I would be in a gas truck forum. No offense meant for the op. If that is his or her thing then more power to them. I am just unclear on why they posted the link about an upcoming gas truck on a EV truck forum.

 

[S.H.Peterson]

...MEH

 

[AllenZL]

you’ve not touched on any of the “good” arguments, though - only strawmaned the bad ones.

I wouldn’t be able to do any justice to those better arguments here if only for limits of brevity if not expertise, as I’d only be regurgitating secondhand anyway, but a few of the breadcrumbs, in short:

• the goal of electrification and emissions reduction should be looking convert the maximum number vehicles, across all price ranges, to battery power as soon as possible
• the average driver only drives short distances for the majority of their vehicle use

•despite the fact that drivers infrequently drive longer distances, the sheer prospect of range anxiety prohibits uptake by many consumers

• the charging infrastructure for gaps is not only presently weak, but promises to require an inordinate investment in both cash and resources, only in order to address that fraction of longer distance trips requiring gap-filling

accordingly, hybrids that have eg 80mi of full electric range “up front” manage to convert the vast majority of use cases/drive time to full electric, across a broader range of affordable cars, while simultaneously reducing the need for low-use gap-filling electrification infrastructure and buyer hesitancy for range anxiety

it is, in effect, a strategy of transition to full electric - not avoidance of it - which seeks to right-size the realities of the market at the lowest barrier to adoption.

now again, I’m neither doing these arguments Justice, nor am I personally taking the position - I’m only in brief pointing towards them, and noting that there are people who are equally concerned with accelerating electrification that don’t view, eg, Tesla’s strategy as correct. In their view, basically, Tesla is using monster battery packs with an emphasis on maximum range and unnecessary performance in order to allow the average driver to accomplish an average commute of 40mi / day in the US, and 18mi in Europe, etc.

Those in the other camp have good views, too.

BTW, I spent 15 years in the O&G industry and don’t see the relevance in your injections on that point.

EDIT TO ADD: I’d say, too, that to suggest Japanese manufacturers in particular are merely shills for big oil is in my experience pretty laughable; that’s a country with a far more advanced social embodiment of energy conservation and path to sustainability than the US, by several orders of magnitude. You may not agree with their world view on the appropriate strategy toward full electrification, but to suggest they’re disingenuous about it, or merely haven’t thought about it as “good” as you, would both be mostly hubris.

you’ve not touched on any of the “good” arguments, though - only strawmaned the bad ones.

I wouldn’t be able to do any justice to those better arguments here if only for limits of brevity if not expertise, as I’d only be regurgitating secondhand anyway, but a few of the breadcrumbs, in short:

• the goal of electrification and emissions reduction should be looking convert the maximum number vehicles, across all price ranges, to battery power as soon as possible
• the average driver only drives short distances for the majority of their vehicle use

•despite the fact that drivers infrequently drive longer distances, the sheer prospect of range anxiety prohibits uptake by many consumers

• the charging infrastructure for gaps is not only presently weak, but promises to require an inordinate investment in both cash and resources, only in order to address that fraction of longer distance trips requiring gap-filling

accordingly, hybrids that have eg 80mi of full electric range “up front” manage to convert the vast majority of use cases/drive time to full electric, across a broader range of affordable cars, while simultaneously reducing the need for low-use gap-filling electrification infrastructure and buyer hesitancy for range anxiety

it is, in effect, a strategy of transition to full electric - not avoidance of it - which seeks to right-size the realities of the market at the lowest barrier to adoption.

now again, I’m neither doing these arguments Justice, nor am I personally taking the position - I’m only in brief pointing towards them, and noting that there are people who are equally concerned with accelerating electrification that don’t view, eg, Tesla’s strategy as correct. In their view, basically, Tesla is using monster battery packs with an emphasis on maximum range and unnecessary performance in order to allow the average driver to accomplish an average commute of 40mi / day in the US, and 18mi in Europe, etc.

Those in the other camp have good views, too.

BTW, I spent 15 years in the O&G industry and don’t see the relevance in your injections on that point.

EDIT TO ADD: I’d say, too, that to suggest Japanese manufacturers in particular are merely shills for big oil is in my experience pretty laughable; that’s a country with a far more advanced social embodiment of energy conservation and path to sustainability than the US, by several orders of magnitude. You may not agree with their world view on the appropriate strategy toward full electrification, but to suggest they’re disingenuous about it, or merely haven’t thought about it as “good” as you, would both be mostly hubris.

“range anxiety” only exists due to media pushing the idea / perception. As you call out typical range driven. This will need to be a paradigm shift and thought no matter what the actual battery range.

 

[cvalue13]

“range anxiety” only exists due to media pushing the idea / perception. As you call out typical range driven. This will need to be a paradigm shift and thought no matter what the actual battery range.

I can't agree with that.

That an average driver typically drives less than 50mi/day is unrelated to whether the consumer expects the vehicle they purchase to occasionally be used for longer trips.

Just see *gestures to this entire forum* clamoring for a CT with 500mi range.

In my Lightning, I've driven only 5,000 miles in 10 months - but 1,000 of that was from two 500mi trips to the beach with my family, and I wouldn't have bought a vehicle that couldn't pull that off, even if only twice a year.

That said, what the media - but also enthusiasts - often mischaracterize is that BEV's are any different from ICE vehicles in respect to range. The vehicles themselves differ only in terms of the size of the "gas tank" - BEVs simply have small tanks compared to modern alternatives (e.g., the Ford Lightning has the equivalent of a 13 gallon tank). Then there's the vehicle independent matter of "refueling" infrastructure.

Media and enthusiasts alike tend to discuss range issues as though there is something pecular or magical about how the vehicles themselves - the engines, the aerodynamics, the batteries - perform differently than ICE when encountering physics. They don't. BEV's merely have smaller "gas tanks," and fewer "refueling" stations.

 

[Bill906]

I am single and have one vehicle. I can't buy a vehicle based on my typical or average use. It needs to be able to handle all my use cases. Including the 290 mile trip I take multiple times a year. My current vehicle can do it non-stop. I'm hoping my CT can also. Especially on cold, snowy slushy days when I don't want to get out of the car.

 

[Rozonoe]

wasn’t by accident.

Toyota and several others are of the philosophy that hybrid are more viable and environmentally conscientious than full electric

not here to take that position personally, but instead to only report that many serious manufacturers, academics, and others who spend considerable time thinking about it do not arrive at the same principles arrived at by Tesla

Good arguments on both sides, by people who think about it for a living.

Toyota bet against Elon & they will not win ! To far in dept with owing 1.9billions in loan. They want make it.

 

[Rozonoe]

the 2023 Toyota bZ4X is an SUV (or whatever they call them now) STARTS at $43,335
I saw 1 today at a charging station, pretty nice.
Id imagine it wouldnt be too hard to make a truck version, for around the same price.
that honestly sounds like a good competitor to me

Very inferior To a MY

 

[Rozonoe]

In 2020 we bought a PHEV Chrysler Pacifica. Totally a gateway drug. It's very addicting to be able to plug in your vehicle and drive around town for a month or 2 without having to go to a gas station. But, then when we go on a road trip, have a vehicle that gets 500 miles per tank full, and have the ability to stop at any gas station and get 500 more miles of range in 5 minutes at the pump (usually 20 mins+ with bathroom and food and more like 200 miles). With it being a PHEV we still average 30mpg with a minivan because of regen.
Personally I think it's not good to have 2 camps arguing with each other, all in on ICE or EV. Instead of making laws that they will ban all ICE engines, they should start with All vehicles are required to have regen and batteries. Regen is huge!

Climate change warrant the élimination of fossil fuel as fast as we can, with Toyota and the like, swimming in the wrong direction.

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