The Cyber Truck may pay for itself.

[DarinCT]

Thing is I do see it his way and if he had read my posts he'd have known that.

Your most informative post makes it clear that there are many regulatory hurdles to be cleared. Investor owned utilities won't be in a big hurry to get on board and will only do so when legislation forces them to.

That aside, what I love about the Tesla program is that it makes this sort of sharing possible within the current grid structure, that is, they have the technical part of the problem solved. No need for new anti-islanding protocols, voltage regulation, THD.... standards. The system works in the current infrastructure (understood that I am probably being naive about something here).

For an EE, I imagine it's pretty straight forward. The grid is full of sources, runs, nodes, and loads. LMP (Locational Marginal Pricing) = Energy price + Trasmission congestion cost + Loss Price. LMP data are public. Example here. The greater than number of node hops, the more the congestion and loss price goes up. Each line has a different capacity (of course). Tesla knows the location and SOC for all the PowerWall (and potentially EV in this equation); they know the marginal cost per public data.

The issue I imagine is one of scale vs proximity. By providing local power via PowerWall, transmission and loss price go down and margin goes up but at the expense of aggregation. I'm sure Tesla knows how much profit they could have earned over the last couple of years already. That's the nut of it.

There are a myriad of other issues e.g. maximizing environmentally friendly mix per mandate, all the while managing the voltage and market.

The above is all operating on the assumption that they are becoming active in the spot market or day ahead market. As far as I can tell, no announcement has been made about revenue streams.

To argue is it possible, probable or too costly, that Musk will connect Tesla EV’s stored energy into his new VPP is almost comical to me. If you don’t believe hardware is being designed and tested simultaneously, to access this stored EV power, with the VPP Beta; you are ignoring how Musk operates and Musk time when unlimited funding is available.

I'm not sure who the "you" , we agree just not on the CT part.

Tesla's already have bidirectional charging, Musk has already stated Tesla is an energy company, and we are all aware how Musk operates. On the other hand, "Musk time" is something that probably shouldn't be counted on positively or negatively.

Btw, nice PowerWalls. We live in a municipal utility district and our at night rate is dirt cheap. The ROI for a PowerWall would be roughly 10 years so we passed.

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[ajdelange]

For an EE, I imagine it's pretty straight forward. The grid is full of sources, runs, nodes, and loads. LMP (Locational Marginal Pricing) = Energy price + Trasmission congestion cost + Loss Price. LMP data are public.

No, not at all. It's about as straightforward as the tax code. When I installed solar panels my utility sent me a copy of the new tariff to which I would be subject. It took me a day to prepare a spreadsheet into which I could enter production and consumption and which would compute my bill which does not match the bills I get. There is a reason Tesla's scheduling software includes an AI engine.

The issue I imagine is one of scale vs proximity. By providing local power via PowerWall, transmission and loss price go down and margin goes up but at the expense of aggregation. I'm sure Tesla knows how much profit they could have earned over the last couple of years already. That's the nut of it.

It appears to me that the present goal is to alleviate the current apparently dismal situation in California through load leveling and that is it. That may not be the case in other jurisdictions where the potential for profit exists. To predict what combination of weather, demographics, demand history, demand distribution etc. would make profitability profitable will require very complex models driven by accumulated data. I believe it is the purpose of these pilot systems to gather this data. Trying to look at the forrest rather than the trees it appears that the Tesla system can emulate a peaker plant or plants. If that proves to be true a peaker plant or plants can be taken off line permanently. That, I believe, is where the potential lies.

Tesla's already have bidirectional charging,

That lights up as a link but doesn't link to anything so if you could try again I'd like to check this out or if you could just say which parts of the Tesla have bidirectionality that would do. The only bidirectional circuits in any Tesla that I know about is in the inverters which serve as inverters during motoring and rectifiers during braking. The CT will have rectifiers for charging and inverters for the bed outlets. I don't really consider that bidirectionality limiting that to mean mains <==> battery. The Powerwalls have bidirectional in that sense.

 

[DarinCT]

No, not at all. It's about as straightforward as the tax code. When I installed solar panels my utility sent me a copy of the new tariff to which I would be subject. It took me a day to prepare a spreadsheet into which I could enter production and consumption and which would compute my bill which does not match the bills I get. There is a reason Tesla's scheduling software includes an AI engine.

Uhhh...I think we're talking about two different things, sorry for any confusion.

It appears to me that the present goal is to alleviate the current apparently dismal situation in California through load leveling and that is it. That may not be the case in other jurisdictions where the potential for profit exists. To predict what combination of weather, demographics, demand history, demand distribution etc. would make profitability profitable will require very complex models driven by accumulated data. I believe it is the purpose of these pilot systems to gather this data. Trying to look at the forrest rather than the trees it appears that the Tesla system can emulate a peaker plant or plants. If that proves to be true a peaker plant or plants can be taken off line permanently. That, I believe, is where the potential lies.

There's two concepts here. First is that spot market prices during peak demand rise considerably. Peaker plants have utilizations that are often less than 5 percent, <2 percent is not uncommon. In order for those plants to exist, the price point needs to be very high. In other words, the load leveling and the profits are interrelated. The issue of weather, demographics, history and distribution is not something that any power source or utility has to worry about, that is the responsibility of the ISO. ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regional_transmission_organization_(North_America) ). For example, shifts in wind may make a portion of the wind power in one area fall or rise but not in another area where wind is being provided. The ISO is the one that sets the load level and the providers bid if they like the price. The rest handles itself...mostly. Texas does not have a limit on market price so in the edge cases provide incredible profit opportunities. I was talking to one guy who both provides a product and teachers at the university about this and he said that a handful of days in the UK hitting peak pricing would be enough to cover all the costs for the year.

The second concept is geography. California imports power (iirc it's about 19% of it's total but that's just ballpark). Green and local is preferred because the interties are only rated so high. They get congested and there is line loss. I don't have specifics but it is not clear how Tesla plans to aggregate their power. Long ago, Tesla had megapacks in Las Vegas hotels that turned on whenever the load was about to go into the next tier. The peak shaving provided total cost savings. (Btw, this is not just a Tesla thing, this has been around in different forms with different technologies for awhile.) That's a single entity in a specific location with a single meter. How many PowerWalls would be necessary for a given area to notice? What's the smallest increment that CAISO will accept? About three years ago, they proposed and passed a local market resiliency resolution (?, law?, code?, practice?). How did that change, if at all, Tesla's ability to provide potentially smaller amounts to a narrower geographic area?

That lights up as a link but doesn't link to anything so if you could try again I'd like to check this out or if you could just say which parts of the Tesla have bidirectionality that would do. The only bidirectional circuits in any Tesla that I know about is in the inverters which serve as inverters during motoring and rectifiers during braking. The CT will have rectifiers for charging and inverters for the bed outlets. I don't really consider that bidirectionality limiting that to mean mains <==> battery. The Powerwalls have bidirectional in that sense.

Sorry, I was editing and I backspaced into the link and destroyed it.

https://electrek.co/2020/05/19/tesla-bidirectional-charging-ready-game-changing-features/

***

I love the idea, the concepts and yea @LDRHAWKE , it might happen way sooner than I think. The devil is in the details.

 

[Crissa]

https://electrek.co/2020/05/19/tesla-bidirectional-charging-ready-game-changing-features/

This article updated by debunking the bidirectional charger, alas.

But Tesla has moved forward with their plans to sell power on the grods. Right now in California it's just a dry run, with no money exchanging hands.

-Crissa

 

[ajdelange]

OK so Tesla does not actually have bi-directional circuitry. What they do have is an architecture that could be easily converted, modified or adapted to be used in bi directional circuitry. What that article reveals is that Tesla rectifiers and inverters are bridges. No surprise there. An inverter is a bridge. A rectifier is a bridge. Note that none of those drawings show how those switches are gated. So this article was just another "the AWD will have 600 mile range" article. The technology is there. Bi directional equipment exists in many places including in Tesla (motor controllers) but there is no evidence that bidirectional charging is, in actual fact, present in the cars today anywhere but the controllers,

It would be more accurate, but clearly less sensational, to say "The modification of Tesla's charger design to render it capable of bi directional energy flow is, from the technology point of view, a very minor challenge. This is somewhat akin to saying "Sun expected to rise tomorrow morning."

 

[rr6013]

Everyone knows that this picture of a Tesla Power Wall that comes with a Tesla solar roof.

But, did you know Tesla is now a Virtual Power company in California, and that it buys and sells electricity to power companies at peak demand when power can sell for 10 times normal? The new kicker is that Tesla now has computer system that will seamlessly connect and uses the power from these Tesla power walls under contract with owners, paying them for the energy stored and used during peak demand.

So What! What has that to do with a CyberTruck? Well I will tell you.

Without even having a solar roof, a Cybertruck will be able to be wired into your home charging system or a charging station and be able to be connected to the Tesla Virtual Power Grid. I don’t know the financial agreement that Tesla will make to get access to your Cybertruck battery……..But I do know a Tri-motor 500 mile battery is 10 times larger that a single 13.5 kWh power wall. In some states Power Wall owners are making a couple of grand a year selling directly back to power companies during peak demand.

When you get you new Cybertruck it looks like you may also have a new source of income and be a member of what may end up being one of the largest power companies in the World.

Happy Days are here again.?

Slick Tesla charging wall.

Anyone not capable of using $10k subsidy on a RWD CT1, Tesla Power and Lightning(hello FORD) will definitely offset AWD CT’s.

Tesla may not be able to rate protect all Tesla VPP at the end of the program. Grandfathered solar early adopters got some wicked good rates then Utilities raked back those gains with fees and cuts.

SO critical to be right place, right time. Tesla Energy VPP TX trading strategically gateways into CA,TX and midwest markets. It could enable “dirty” power to dinosaur fueling sustainable energy growth bridging battery-to-solar as the power gap solution to sundown energy drops off the grid.

That could put a dent in global warming caused by coal and gas shuttering plants, coal mines, trains and pipelines that would be the greatest, fastest tool in regulatory capture against greenhouse gases.

Someone do the maths. How many CT3’s == 100mi sq. solar energy storage-to-grid x 150% peaker margin?

 

[LDRHAWKE]

BACK TO PLUGGING YOUR CYBERTRUCK INTO THE GRID TO MAKE A BUCK!

LDRHAWKE said:
My difficulty is trying to understand your argument, which seems to be “Elon has not announced it.”

"IT" being the ability to plug a Cybertruck into the VPP grid.

"ajdelange said: That's hardly an argument. It is simply a statement of fact, AFAIK. You said in your first post that the CT will be part of this virtual grid. I asked you to confirm that. You cannot. End of discussion. In all probablility your CT will not be capable of being wired into Tesla's virtual grid at least at first. As an engineer I understand the possible benefits and I understand the drawbacks. I cannot accept that your fantasy is as much as a fait accompli because you like the idea."



That wasn’t a long wait now was it. It is OK to take the foot out of your mouth. I am sure Tesla is not far behind or already there with a equal or better device. With the new DCBEL home charging station it looks like you will be able to plug your new Cybertruck or EV right into to your house for back up energy and sell power back into the grid right now. Obviously dependent on state regulations for buying back power. The box cost $5,000 but with a TriMotor battery with 135 kWh stored energy to sell, which should get a pretty good ROI payback, again depending on present State Power Regs. It appears anyone signing up to be part of Teslas VPP Betta can plug their car right into the system now and add available power from their cars battery by simply installing the DCBEL box.



https://www.dcbel.energy/

 

[ajdelange]

BACK TO PLUGGING YOUR CYBERTRUCK INTO THE GRID TO MAKE A BUCK!
It appears anyone signing up to be part of Teslas VPP Betta can plug their car right into the system now and add available power from their cars battery by simply installing the DCBEL box.

OK, I've got the Tesla and I'll order the box and sign up for the program. The part I'm not clear on is what part of the box do I plug into what part of the car to participate in the Tesla VPP program. Please give me a hand here.

 

[LDRHAWKE]

OK, I've got the Tesla and I'll order the box and sign up for the program. The part I'm not clear on is what part of the box do I plug into what part of the car to participate in the Tesla VPP program. Please give me a hand here.

"In all probablility your CT will not be capable of being wired into Tesla's virtual grid at least at first. As an engineer I understand the possible benefits and I understand the drawbacks"

Figure it out......you're an engineer.

 

[ajdelange]

Figure it out......you're an engineer.

I'm afraid, engineering background and all, that I am stumped. I can't see, from their (dcbel's) description nor looking at my car how this could be done as you claim "now". You are going to have to help me.

 

[LDRHAWKE]

"In all probablility your CT will not be capable of being wired into Tesla's virtual grid at least at first. As an engineer I understand the possible benefits and I understand the drawbacks"

Figure it out......you're an engineer.

I remember reading a story about Elon Musk during an engineering meeting at SpaceX as he listened to a presentation by one of the other engineers. When the engineer finished he disagreed and said it would be designed another way and gave a long technical response as to why. After Musk was done another engineer spoke out and said if we did it that way it would fail...you are wrong..here is why. Musk thought....and said you are right, I was wrong. They went onto the next topic. A good trait for a company leader. I tried to do that while running my engineering company for 30 years. Didn't alway succeed, but I tried.

 

[ajdelange]

Musk thought....and said you are right, I was wrong. They went onto the next topic. A good trait for a company leader. I tried to do that while running my engineering company for 30 years. Didn't alway succeed, but I tried.

Is this your roundabout way of admitting that one cannot in fact plug the Tesla sitting in his driveway into the Tesla VPP system using a dcbel box? If so that is quite magnanimous on your part. Please don't get me wrong. I do recognize the possibilites here and applaud your enthusiasm roundly. It's just there are practicalities that have to be dealt with and that's going to take time.

 

[Ogre]

I remember reading a story about Elon Musk during an engineering meeting at SpaceX as he listened to a presentation by one of the other engineers. When the engineer finished he disagreed and said it would be designed another way and gave a long technical response as to why. After Musk was done another engineer spoke out and said if we did it that way it would fail...you are wrong..here is why. Musk thought....and said you are right, I was wrong. They went onto the next topic. A good trait for a company leader. I tried to do that while running my engineering company for 30 years. Didn't alway succeed, but I tried.

One of the remarkable things about Musk is able to be an effective CEO and an engineer.

Not just at Tesla, at SpaceX as well.

 

[Bill906]

The part I'm not clear on is what part of the box do I plug into what part of the car...

I'm afraid, engineering background and all, that I am stumped. I can't see, from their (dcbel's) description nor looking at my car how this could be done as you claim "now". You are going to have to help me.

I do not know for sure, but looking at their marketing literature that says "Use your EV for blackout power" And also saying it can fast charge your EV, I'm guessing the DCBEL device accesses (charges/discharges) the battery voltage directly via the DC fast charging connector. Now how that links up with Tesla VPP, I do not know. But to answer what part of the box do I plug into what part of the car I feel fairly confident it's the charging port.

 

[Cybertruckee]

So Elon is not waiting for someone to give him a 100x100 miles empty land for his solar panel to electrify with it the whole of the US of A, and he'll just do it with our fleets of Cybertrucks..

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