Charge me by the ton mile

[JBee]

Well we could extract oil just for roads but there are amazing materials being engineered lately as well. Amazing times.

Extracting oil for bitumen would make roads unaffordable. They're subsidised with fuel profits. Besides, what do we do with all the left over fuel from distilling bitumen just for roads?

As for "other" alternatives, I'd like to see something in the quantities and cost of bitumen...let alone flexible properties for winter and grip etc.

As I said before on various other threads, rails for suburbia and evtol flying inbetween. Less resources, faster, easier cheaper, and if done overhead takes up negligible space and people can claim the ground to themselves again.

-

Trying to work out a cost per ton for funding roads with predominantly EV traffic would only make sense if one would know how roads would be built and how much they would cost without fossil derived bitumen. (Which also makes asphalt)

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[Crissa]

Then blacktop becomes unaffordable and that's perfectly fine.

-Crissa

 

[JBee]

Then blacktop becomes unaffordable and that's perfectly fine.

-Crissa

So we drive on dirt because we have CTs anyway? No need for discussing tax for roads if there are no roads.

Makes sense.... ? ?

Rails it is then.

 

[Crissa]

So we drive on dirt because we have CTs anyway? No need for discussing tax for roads if there are no roads.

Makes sense.... ? ?

Rails it is then.

There are other materials for roads.

-Crissa

 

[Challeco]

The goal was to replace the gas tax in such a way that encourages lighter safer more efficient vehicles. Not Hummers. The CT may be best among the truck but it is not a good as a model 3 by a long shot.

This might be a little regressive as a by product. That said, maybe lower income people don't need to own a car or drive at all. Walk, bike, carpool, robo taxi etc. There is a lot of stress with owning a car. I don't want to be mean here but the best mile is the mile not driven.

You don't want to be mean, but that is exactly what you come across as. Your misquote of "the best part is no part" as modified for miles makes no sense. These lower income people you refer to do need to own a car and do need to drive. That is the essence of being poor, working poor, and shift workers. Public transport doesn't operate door to door. Robotaxis are currently geofenced in areas of high population density... just like the rest of public transit. But here's the hole in your logic, employers are in every city, every state, every town down to the ones that have one blinking yellow traffic light. Yet, apartment complexes aren't everywhere, rent is more expensive than mortgage, rooms for rent like the ones I offered for years are not central to the business center, and grocery stores are not open 24 hours in towns outside the metropolitan areas. Time is money and both are scarce when you don't have a trust fund.

 

[Crissa]

You don't want to be mean, but that is exactly what you come across as. Your misquote of "the best part is no part" as modified for miles makes no sense. These lower income people you refer to do need to own a car and do need to drive. That is the essence of being poor, working poor, and shift workers. Public transport doesn't operate door to door. Robotaxis are currently geofenced in areas of high population density... just like the rest of public transit. But here's the hole in your logic, employers are in every city, every state, every town down to the ones that have one blinking yellow traffic light. Yet, apartment complexes aren't everywhere, rent is more expensive than mortgage, rooms for rent like the ones I offered for years are not central to the business center, and grocery stores are not open 24 hours in towns outside the metropolitan areas. Time is money and both are scarce when you don't have a trust fund.

None of that says people must have cars and drive.

My sister doesn't. The train stops blocks from her apartment complex. No, we don't have a trust fund. I bought my house for less than a tricked a full price Model S Plaid.

Public transit only goes where we want it to. There's no reason it can't go door to door. That's what taxis do, after all.

-Crissa

 

[Tinker71]

Extracting oil for bitumen would make roads unaffordable. They're subsidised with fuel profits. Besides, what do we do with all the left over fuel from distilling bitumen just for roads?

As for "other" alternatives, I'd like to see something in the quantities and cost of bitumen...let alone flexible properties for winter and grip etc.

As I said before on various other threads, rails for suburbia and evtol flying inbetween. Less resources, faster, easier cheaper, and if done overhead takes up negligible space and people can claim the ground to themselves again.

-

Trying to work out a cost per ton for funding roads with predominantly EV traffic would only make sense if one would know how roads would be built and how much they would cost without fossil derived bitumen. (Which also makes asphalt)

There is the natural cut of oil which is used for making tar for roads, this is uses the least amount of energy, however you can make tar out of natural gas if you want to.

There is carbon sequestering concrete supposedly coming out.

and this stuff.

https://scitechdaily.com/mit-engineers-create-the-impossible-new-material-that-is-stronger-than-steel-and-as-light-as-plastic/

Unfortunately our wean off period will be long. The "cost" per ton mile might go up, but our air and water will be so much better. We will figure it out.

 

[MEDICALJMP]

None of that says people must have cars and drive.

My sister doesn't. The train stops blocks from her apartment complex. No, we don't have a trust fund. I bought my house for less than a tricked a full price Model S Plaid.

Public transit only goes where we want it to. There's no reason it can't go door to door. That's what taxis do, after all.

-Crissa

The train stops just blocks from her door. Great. You might have noticed that the majority of the country does not have mass transit trains. Nor do they run everywhere in a city 24/7. In much of the non-coastal states you simply need a car. Not everyone works 9-5. That single mom working 2 jobs needs to go from home to job A, home, to job B, back home. People work weird shifts in medicine grocery stores, pharmacies, factories, etc.

Public transport only goes where a majority of use is, not where “we” want it. A bus line does not run by the widget factory at 11:30 PM from 25 different directions from where each of the 25 night shift workers come from. Poor people need cars here in flyover country just as much as middle and upper class folks.

 

[JBee]

And rural people even more so.
I mean to think that driving is an "option" in rural areas is just daft. Rural is typically also where there's less money too.

Our nearest shopping center is 180km away. The nearest city 600km. If they were to tax rural drivers the same rate as metropolitan areas, there would simply be no rural roads here in Australia ar all. Same with power, water and telecommunications. I drive 600km through 8 towns and have on average less than 30 cars drive past me...about 50 trucks though.

 

[Tinker71]

None of that says people must have cars and drive.

My sister doesn't. The train stops blocks from her apartment complex. No, we don't have a trust fund. I bought my house for less than a tricked a full price Model S Plaid.

Public transit only goes where we want it to. There's no reason it can't go door to door. That's what taxis do, after all.

-Crissa

Sell your stock in Bus builders. When FSD/robotaxi comes on line, the days of the nearly empty bus will be gone. Trip times should approach personal vehicles with some advantages for carpool lanes and saving time parking. This will be an absolute game changer.

 

[Tinker71]

The train stops just blocks from her door. Great. You might have noticed that the majority of the country does not have mass transit trains. Nor do they run everywhere in a city 24/7. In much of the non-coastal states you simply need a car. Not everyone works 9-5. That single mom working 2 jobs needs to go from home to job A, home, to job B, back home. People work weird shifts in medicine grocery stores, pharmacies, factories, etc.

Public transport only goes where a majority of use is, not where “we” want it. A bus line does not run by the widget factory at 11:30 PM from 25 different directions from where each of the 25 night shift workers come from. Poor people need cars here in flyover country just as much as middle and upper class folks.

1.) We need to move in the direction of less energy devoted to transportation. If people pay the true cost of transportation they will start to make better decisions. If you find a "better job" that is 30 miles from home you really need to factor your time and mileage into the equation. $2 per hour more gets eaten up pretty quick at $.50 per mile.
2.) Over time better housing close to jobs will evolve if we don't support false economies.
3.) Rural road are highly subsidized as they should be. Urban people rarely use them, but we can if we want and our food often is transported on these roads.
4.) I understand the desire to live rural. If you can afford to then do it. If you can't afford to drive, move to town or work closer and take a pay cut.

 

[Ogre]

None of that says people must have cars and drive.

My sister doesn't. The train stops blocks from her apartment complex. No, we don't have a trust fund. I bought my house for less than a tricked a full price Model S Plaid.

Public transit only goes where we want it to. There's no reason it can't go door to door. That's what taxis do, after all.

-Crissa

Seems like the Tesla way is to replace public transport with robotaxis and tunnels.

That’s not fewer roads, that’s more, and more complicated ones to boot.

Also, lots of people don’t leave convenient to public transport. This is sort of a chicken/ egg thing. We’ve built massive cities around the assumption that everyone has a way to get around and very little infra to get people around. It’s quite frustrating actually because at least for now it’s a huge tax on the poor who can’t afford to live in the city and can’t afford to pay for a car or parking so they are excluded from many opportunities.

 

[MEDICALJMP]

4.) I understand the desire to live rural. If you can afford to then do it. If you can't afford to drive, move to town or work closer and take a pay cut.

Where do you think your food comes from? Kroger’s? Whole Foods?
By your thought process all those farmers and ranchers need to move to town.

 

[Tinker71]

Seems like the Tesla way is to replace public transport with robotaxis and tunnels.

That’s not fewer roads, that’s more, and more complicated ones to boot.

Also, lots of people don’t leave convenient to public transport. This is sort of a chicken/ egg thing. We’ve built massive cities around the assumption that everyone has a way to get around and very little infra to get people around. It’s quite frustrating actually because at least for now it’s a huge tax on the poor who can’t afford to live in the city and can’t afford to pay for a car or parking so they are excluded from many opportunities.

Elon also mentioned elevated double decker roads. Think about it, with 16 feet clearance in most places you could have 2 stacked lanes for cars less than 7' tall. These could be prefabricated and maybe even placed on existing roadway without foundations.

On/off ramps would be a challenge. Maybe reserve for through traffic.

Low Clearance Bridge must see. Unfortunately I don't have a link before they raised the bridge. I litterly watch almost all of the 162 crashes. Hilarious.

 

[Tinker71]

Where do you think your food comes from? Kroger’s? Whole Foods?
By your thought process all those farmers and ranchers need to move to town.

No the farmers live by the farm. The long distance commuters move to the city or pay the true cost of driving.

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