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hemiarch

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I just want my CT to functionally charge as fast as my model x despite the larger pack. Not a crazy ask I don’t think. Ideally they would all match the time of the 3. Same performance functionally for the most expensive car in the range as the cheapest
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henchman24

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I just want my CT to functionally charge as fast as my model x despite the larger pack. Not a crazy ask I don’t think. Ideally they would all match the time of the 3. Same performance functionally for the most expensive car in the range as the cheapest
Current Model S/X is about 29-30 minutes 0-80% (they actually charge pretty well). I really don't see that happening with the current CT pack. The Panasonic pack 3/Y is ~32 right now. The LG pack 3/Y at 34 minutes is basically this update. Taking the 35 minutes remaining at face value a minuteish more (they round so not exact). Compared to OoS' data we'd be at mid to high 34s if we take the 2:15 at face value. IMO we probably see tweaks like after the V3 launch to be in the high 33s to 34.

Once this update drops, we just get tweaks to the edges unless there is an issue causing failure. So whatever this tests at minus maybe a minute is likely the best. This testing could also be as good as it gets.

0-80% in 35 minutes is basically ~5 minutes better than any other truck. The GM two larger packs will add more energy, but won't hit the percentage because they use massive packs (~39-42 minutes). They charge very well though. Rivian is about 39-40 minutes with the improved curve (it'll typically slow by ~2-3 minutes after one charge). Hummer is 40-41. Lightning is about 45-46 after their latest update. Another reference would be the Lucid Gravity that is ~27 minutes 0-80%. IMO the CT cells will not touch that.
 

hemiarch

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Current Model S/X is about 29-30 minutes 0-80% (they actually charge pretty well). I really don't see that happening with the current CT pack. The Panasonic pack 3/Y is ~32 right now. The LG pack 3/Y at 34 minutes is basically this update. Taking the 35 minutes remaining at face value a minuteish more (they round so not exact). Compared to OoS' data we'd be at mid to high 34s if we take the 2:15 at face value. IMO we probably see tweaks like after the V3 launch to be in the high 33s to 34.

Once this update drops, we just get tweaks to the edges unless there is an issue causing failure. So whatever this tests at minus maybe a minute is likely the best. This testing could also be as good as it gets.

0-80% in 35 minutes is basically ~5 minutes better than any other truck. The GM two larger packs will add more energy, but won't hit the percentage because they use massive packs (~39-42 minutes). They charge very well though. Rivian is about 39-40 minutes with the improved curve (it'll typically slow by ~2-3 minutes after one charge). Hummer is 40-41. Lightning is about 45-46 after their latest update. Another reference would be the Lucid Gravity that is ~27 minutes 0-80%. IMO the CT cells will not touch that.
Well. Aspirational I guess. The model x wins almost every time for us as a long haul people mover unless we are planing to do some off-roading or have large stuff to carry.
 

henchman24

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Well. Aspirational I guess. The model x wins almost every time for us as a long haul people mover unless we are planing to do some off-roading or have large stuff to carry.
Hopefully the next 4680 cell revision has some improvements. We know they are working on one with better density and in theory, should have better charging characteristics.
 

hemiarch

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I’ve been a Tesla owner from the very beginning and I’ve always applied the logic that battery technology was only going to get cheaper and better and the same should be true for upgrades but so far that has never panned out for me. It’s still outrageously cost prohibitive to do anything to improve the packs and software.
 


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So the speed before 50% isn’t useful to you? I rarely charge over 50% at a stop on long trips. I try to keep my range between 6% and 50%
But do you do that because of the taper? What if it didn’t taper until say 70%? Would your stops be between 6% and 70%?
 

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But do you do that because of the taper? What if it didn’t taper until say 70%? Would your stops be between 6% and 70%?
Pretty much every vehicle benefits from charging lower. A select few (mostly Taycan and Audi GT) hold longer where if you are getting a good charge it is best not to risk it and fine charging to 55-60%. Pretty much every car tapers way before 70.

my behavior is really give a 5% buffer between stops or to what I need to use at my destination. If that’s 35-55-85, whatever that is. I have one long stretch where I routinely charge to 85. That would be nice to have a better curve up top. I prefer more to have an additional charger in between. I wouldn’t ever go out of my way to charge more because I could. Only if I’m avoiding unreliable chargers, or need charge at my destination.
 

hemiarch

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So why do you have to taper from an engineering standpoint? Is it heat?
 

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So why do you have to taper from an engineering standpoint? Is it heat?
The most basic way of explaining is as the battery fills up, resistance is created and thus heat. Heat causes all sorts of issues if not contained. It can range from minor plating to full thermal runaway. Additionally the stresses of charging and sitting at high soc causes dendrite formation. Breaking the ability for the battery to store and release energy. Chemistry and design choices determine where the limits are. There is lots of nuance… but heat and lithium dendrite formation.
 

hemiarch

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The most basic way of explaining is as the battery fills up, resistance is created and thus heat. Heat causes all sorts of issues if not contained. It can range from minor plating to full thermal runaway. Additionally the stresses of charging and sitting at high soc causes dendrite formation. Breaking the ability for the battery to store and release energy. Chemistry and design choices determine where the limits are. There is lots of nuance… but heat and lithium dendrite formation.
So suppose you segment the battery. So instead of a 120kwh battery (picking a round number for the sake of conversation) you have 4x30kwh batteries or 6x20kwh batteries or whatever. Could you then charge each of them at high speed until they reach whatever temp is worrisome and then move onto the next one? Could you be charging each at high speed sequentially while the first one cools and then repeat the process?
 


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But do you do that because of the taper? What if it didn’t taper until say 70%? Would your stops be between 6% and 70%?
I could do that, but the waiting from 50% to 70% is time I could be driving to the next charger. Sometimes 70% won’t get me to another charger, 80% might. The calculation would be easier if you could stop anywhere, but since the chargers are only every 100-150 miles.
My biggest factor is actually trying to avoid the 1st gen 150W chargers through Kansas. There Is one stretch that need to charge to about 85% to get to final destination. That stop is usually dinner.
 

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So suppose you segment the battery. So instead of a 120kwh battery (picking a round number for the sake of conversation) you have 4x30kwh batteries or 6x20kwh batteries or whatever. Could you then charge each of them at high speed until they reach whatever temp is worrisome and then move onto the next one? Could you be charging each at high speed sequentially while the first one cools and then repeat the process?
Not really as smaller batteries just hit limits earlier. All down to C rate. You dramatically increase the C rate and create even more heat charging smaller batteries at higher rates. And really when you look at batteries… there are hundreds (sometimes thousands) of batteries just tied together. They just charge at once.

The holy grail is solid state that avoids many of the issues, but material science is decades away from mass manufacturing of them. In the meantime we make incremental improvements. Different chemistries, form factors etc. Currently we are seeing much more copper introduced in the whole path to the battery to reduce any resistance and heat prior to the anode and cathode. Soon we will see silicon carbide introduced where there are density and charging improvements. After that the electrolyte mix will get tweaked until we get to solid mixes.

If we didn’t care about density or long life, we can make 12+C batteries today. 532 chemistry cells in a pouch format can charge at absurd rates, but the CT would have a ~70-75 kWh pack and maybe they’d only last 75-100 cycles. Or you can treat certain LFP poorly, get a 7-8C rate (and still last about 300 cycles) with about ~80kWh. These would be charge rates nearly double or triple what we see here. They just have lifespan and density issues.
 

hemiarch

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Thanks for taking the time to explain. So what exactly does “solid state” mean. I’ve heard this term before but don't entirely understand.
A redox reaction by definition involves the transfer of electrons and that means whatever acts as the donor or acceptor at least to some extent changes its physical characteristics right? Does solid state just mean that change is small enough that the phase of matter remains the same or what?
Doesn’t require a liquid or gas medium? That sort of thing?
How is this thing different from an Ecoflow or bluetti or DJI battery?
https://a.co/d/ghmzrz4
They sure feel like it is different enough to price it differently
 

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Thanks for taking the time to explain. So what exactly does “solid state” mean. I’ve heard this term before but don't entirely understand.
A redox reaction by definition involves the transfer of electrons and that means whatever acts as the donor or acceptor at least to some extent changes its physical characteristics right? Does solid state just mean that change is small enough that the phase of matter remains the same or what?
Doesn’t require a liquid or gas medium? That sort of thing?
How is this thing different from an Ecoflow or bluetti or DJI battery?
https://a.co/d/ghmzrz4
They sure feel like it is different enough to price it differently
That’s a whole topic in itself… there are varying levels of solid state (and it has evolved to misleading marketing). Where only a small portion is solid or more solid (usually a solid matrix holding the gel)… where semi or quasi solid state applies more (pretty much any marketed today). A solid state battery is simply getting rid of the liquid/gel electrolyte with a solid material (most are a polymer).
 

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Considering how the 2021 3/Y packs are holding up (not well), Tesla is now very wary of extending out the curve. The initial charging curve on the 2021 3/Y packs was basically the same as the 18-20 3s, with a different cell chemistry. Turns out that cell chemistry did not appreciate pushing 250kW into the mid 20s. They had some quick failures, and within ~3 months Tesla had nerfed the charging curve on those cars pretty dramatically. They figured out quickly those cells didn't like that, and ever since, whenever a new cell goes into a Tesla, they are very conservative on pushing the curve out... and they almost never push the cell temps high in the 20s and 30s anymore.

This is why a new Model 3 actually charges worse than a 2019. Still to this day, the failure rates on 2021 3/Y packs are far higher than any other year. There were some other problems with that pack, but the expensive lesson learned on fast charging them is one they are unlikely to repeat again. They'll go conservative and creep up to the curve they want.
I hadn't heard of this. Exactly what battery (or batteries) are we talking about here? During the COVID supply chain chaos, Tesla had to move mountains to keep pumping out more cars, so not surprising there were some issues. Elon even commented during that time that their production involved too many different battery variations and managing them all was less than ideal. He said they needed to standardize on fewer different battery types.
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