Game over ICE and Tesla knows it.

[Tinker71]

es, but the more cost isn't comparable to the damage done by that weight.

My motorcycle costs more to register than my ICE car. It's not any heavier than other motorcycles.

And the surcharge for an EV is more than what I pay for my ICE in gas taxes. These flat fees just don't work out as fair or equitable to the BEV owner.

If I recall you live in California, which you would think is more EV friendly. That sucks. I think that is because you get state incentives at purchase. So maybe when the incentives go away they will make the registration fees just cover the road maintenance. Incentives really complicate the market.

I live in Utah and the flat tax for EVs is designed to break even after 12,000 miles per year. Unfortunately I my drive my M3 alot and average 20000 so I pay comparatively less. My EV bus on the other hand I only drive 1000 or so. They wanted me to pay $350 for that. I skirted the rules a little and register it as a Antique for $10.

Paying by the mass distance would be slick, but transponder tracking would trigger privacy concerns. Self estimating milage with annual reconciliations with true reconciliations at sale or transfer, or as you said safety inspections could work.

My post assumes 350 kW/Kg @ $80 as the tipping point. Tesla may get there next year. The other 4680 guys like LG will be in the same neighborhood. So we probably do need to keep the incentives up, but use a tipping point as the trigger to wean the incentive.

Once those factories are operating at scale it is game over ICE.

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[Tinker71]

Ahhh, but you DON'T want to be 'off the grid' even while using solar... Just the opposite... You want to use that 'excess' solar and send it BACK TO THE GRID (need to be on the grid) to MAKE money from your solar system in addition to 'saving' money... If I only USE 9 kWh's of power in a day but I MAKE 40 kWh's of extra power and then send it to the grid, that means I 'sold' SCE about 31 kWh's worth of power (at anywhere from 0.23 to 0.62 per kWh) per day... That will help pay for the 'minimum' fees they attach for just having a meter, government taxes and fees, etc...

But in any case, THEY will be paying ME for power that I can MAKE instead of the other way around...

We need to build solar until it meets 100% of the needs on the shortest and cloudiest of day of the year (region wide) Batteries to get us through the night. Nuclear and wind as a hedge.

Use all the excess generated throughout the year to desalinate water or turn fans on carbon capture.

Small scale Rooftop Solar is not very economical due to fouling and breakdowns. Maybe future solar tiles will be cheap and bullet proof IDK. If I recall all USA needs could be met with an array 100x100km. Divide most of that by 1000 big solar farms, warehouses. This is the other tipping point.

 

[SlegMD]

A lot of people in this thread are only thinking of oil in the motor vehicle sense. Oil isn’t going away.

It will be good to continue to reduce ICE vehicles on the road though, especially if Tesla can continue to reduce costs of ownership.

 

[DJAlan2000]

A lot of people in this thread are only thinking of oil in the motor vehicle sense. Oil isn’t going away.

It will be good to continue to reduce ICE vehicles on the road though, especially if Tesla can continue to reduce costs of ownership.

I agree!! Been saying that for a long time... OIL is used for MUCH more than making gas and diesel fuels... Lubrication comes to mind! LOTS of things need lubrication and plant based oils are NOT good enough... Cooling - in ICE engines, the oil is also used to help COOL the engine, again, something plant based is almost the opposite as it wants to HOLD the heat... But ICE engines are cooled by water, oil and air... Take just one of those out of the equation and things start heating up!

Oil to make products - sooooo many products are made FROM oil... From plastics to pharmaceuticals, clothing to dentures, chewing gum (petroleum wax or paraffin wax) to lipsticks and a whole lot more...

So, when someone says we need to get rid of all oil... Well, they likely have NO understanding of oil at all... Because they are likely WEARING 'oil', using it in their cars, bikes, shoes, even socks!! Let alone ANYTHING plastic they use everyday... You know, like the computer keyboard I am typing on...

 

[Crissa]

I agree!! Been saying that for a long time... OIL is used for MUCH more than making gas and diesel fuels... Lubrication comes to mind! LOTS of things need lubrication and plant based oils are NOT good enough... Cooling - in ICE engines, the oil is also used to help COOL the engine, again, something plant based is almost the opposite as it wants to HOLD the heat... But ICE engines are cooled by water, oil and air... Take just one of those out of the equation and things start heating up!

Oil to make products - sooooo many products are made FROM oil... From plastics to pharmaceuticals, clothing to dentures, chewing gum (petroleum wax or paraffin wax) to lipsticks and a whole lot more...

So, when someone says we need to get rid of all oil... Well, they likely have NO understanding of oil at all... Because they are likely WEARING 'oil', using it in their cars, bikes, shoes, even socks!! Let alone ANYTHING plastic they use everyday... You know, like the computer keyboard I am typing on...

Right. So also, the people who think that oil as an industry will die when we stop burning it are also misled.

What they should be looking at is expanding the cyclical economy - and pricing into things the recycling of those items into their initial price. That way we make sure they don't end up in our air, water, and roadsides.

-Crissa

 

[SSonnentag]

I think a tire tax could be a fair and equitable method of funding roads. In general, larger tires cost more. Heavier vehicles and performance vehicles generally have larger, more expensive tires, and these same vehicles put more wear and tear on the roadways. Small, light cars are easy on roads and their tires are cheap, therefore they pay less in tire taxes. This also avoids requiring periodic odometer inspections or flat fees that aren't fair.

 

[DJAlan2000]

I think a tire tax could be a fair and equitable method of funding roads. In general, larger tires cost more. Heavier vehicles and performance vehicles generally have larger, more expensive tires, and these same vehicles put more wear and tear on the roadways. Small, light cars are easy on roads and their tires are cheap, therefore they pay less in tire taxes. This also avoids requiring periodic odometer inspections or flat fees that aren't fair.

We already pay a 'recycling' fee here in CA... Funny, just saw our 'bill' for the CT (yay!! Got a VIN, now just need to know when to pick it up!) and it has $7 for that... Funny, 7 bucks for 4 huge tires... But as I understand it, that money is collected and given out to recyclers to help keep them in business because when you REPLACE your tires they STILL charge you a fee for getting rid of the old tires!

But who knows... The government(s) are always looking for new ways to charge us for things while telling us it's good for us for some reason or another...

$7 for 4 tires? Should have just made it an even $8... You know, $2 per tire... but nooooo, someone decided it should only be $1.75 each?

 

[Crissa]

$7 for 4 tires? Should have just made it an even $8... You know, $2 per tire... but nooooo, someone decided it should only be $1.75 each?

We do try to make it as reasonable as possible. Those tires have to go somewhere.

Problem with taxing tires is people might try to avoid replacing tires because of the tax and now we've got these unsafe boxes hurtling down our roads...

-Crissa

 

[DJAlan2000]

We do try to make it as reasonable as possible. Those tires have to go somewhere.

Problem with taxing tires is people might try to avoid replacing tires because of the tax and now we've got these unsafe boxes hurtling down our roads...

-Crissa

I can understand the problems of making them 'go away' in some fashion... In fact, in many places I have lived overseas they make LOTS of things out of those tires! Ever seen a pair of 'flip flops' made from an old tire? They use the tread complete with the steel belts for the 'bottom' of the sandals and then put something spongy (neoprene) on the top for comfort (for the GOOD ones)... BUT, imagine how long they will last!! Those suckers probably still have about 5,000 CAR miles on them!

But here in 'civilized' society, we're into NEW stuff... Heck, I still remember back in the day LOTS of people bought 're-treads' instead of 'new' tires... They were about 1/2 to 2/3 the cost... Now the only ones I know of are trucks who blow through tires VERY quickly...

I also remember when they would put up 'safety checkpoints' (now they are for drunk drivers) where they would do a quick 'inspection' of your vehicle's tires, wiper blades, all the lights, turn signals, emergency flashers, registration, license and insurance too! If you failed on any of the equipment ones, you got a 'fix it' ticket... If you didn't fix the problem, you had to pay a BIG fine (of like $100!!!) AND they would put a hold on your license and registration until you could prove it was fixed...

Sometimes I think they really should bring those back... Especially for older cars...

 

[DJAlan2000]

We need to build solar until it meets 100% of the needs on the shortest and cloudiest of day of the year (region wide) Batteries to get us through the night. Nuclear and wind as a hedge.

Use all the excess generated throughout the year to desalinate water or turn fans on carbon capture.

Small scale Rooftop Solar is not very economical due to fouling and breakdowns. Maybe future solar tiles will be cheap and bullet proof IDK. If I recall all USA needs could be met with an array 100x100km. Divide most of that by 1000 big solar farms, warehouses. This is the other tipping point.

The only problem is that the utility companies don't like rooftop solar anymore! Here in CA we're at the 'tipping point' where solar is providing so much energy to peoples homes AND sending excess to "the grid" that it's hard for companies to make as much profits. That's why they went from NEM 2.0 (where they pay you the same rate for excess as they charge you) to NEM 3.0 which they only have to pay 'wholesale' rates while still charging you 'retail' rates...

Under the ORIGINAL NEM program, you could buy 'E' from the grid (during off peak when it's cheaper) and store it in batteries and then sell it back to the utilities at PEAK prices (4-9pm)... NEM 2.0 forced those hooking up to NOT be able to 'buy from the grid' to go directly into batteries... But at least it was 1-1...

My system 'makes' about 50 kWh per day, but I only USE around 20-25 per day (well, until we get the CT that is), so we're able to 'sell' about 30 kWh per day and USUALLY it's during peak hours... Meanwhile my Model Y 'charges on solar' as much as possible...

But wind is just wrong... WAY too many problems with them... Maintenance is a major headache and speed control is another (they can't go too fast or they can 'blow'), not to mention the overhead... Nuclear is MUCH better as a backup source and coal fired plants are VERY CLEAN compared to 50 years ago and coal is still pretty cheap...

But yeah, we're already seeing so much solar here in CA that we hardly have ANY 'brownouts' or those 'rolling blackouts' either... Which is funny when you consider how many EVs there are in CA!

 

[Tinker71]

I agree!! Been saying that for a long time... OIL is used for MUCH more than making gas and diesel fuels... Lubrication comes to mind! LOTS of things need lubrication and plant based oils are NOT good enough... Cooling - in ICE engines, the oil is also used to help COOL the engine, again, something plant based is almost the opposite as it wants to HOLD the heat... But ICE engines are cooled by water, oil and air... Take just one of those out of the equation and things start heating up!

Oil to make products - sooooo many products are made FROM oil... From plastics to pharmaceuticals, clothing to dentures, chewing gum (petroleum wax or paraffin wax) to lipsticks and a whole lot more...

So, when someone says we need to get rid of all oil... Well, they likely have NO understanding of oil at all... Because they are likely WEARING 'oil', using it in their cars, bikes, shoes, even socks!! Let alone ANYTHING plastic they use everyday... You know, like the computer keyboard I am typing on...

Few are saying no oil. Just not for combustion. 95% reduction.

 

[firsttruck]

.... but the more cost isn't comparable to the damage done by that weight.

My motorcycle costs more to register than my ICE car. It's not any heavier than other motorcycles.

And the surcharge for an EV is more than what I pay for my ICE in gas taxes. These flat fees just don't work out as fair or equitable to the BEV owner.


And miles. Somehow. Maybe bring back safety inspections.

-Crissa

You haven't seen nothing yet.

Wait until you see the new fees they invent for RoboTaxis that are driving on the roads for 18 hours a day instead of standard EV only 1 hour or less per day.

 

[firsttruck]

..... coal fired plants are VERY CLEAN compared to 50 years ago and coal is still pretty cheap...

Just because coal is much cleaner than 50 years ago does not mean we should use it today.

The coal that is much cleaner today is still WAY TOO DIRTY in both mining/processing/transport and burning. The environmental & societal health costs are still externalities that are NOT in coal's price.

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