Need headlight/taillight side cams - Intersection fences/walls/shrubs/parked cars obstructions block FSD B-pillar camera view

Crissa

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1. Not all cars have airbags in the steering wheel. ( Yes, Tesla do)

2. If by leaning forward two feet you can see the cross-traffic that the B-pillar camera can not you need to creep 2 feet less into cross-traffic so you significantly lessen chance of a collision.
1) Name one.
2) There is not a legal lane in the US where two feet is going to change the chance of a crash to zero.

-Crissa
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firsttruck

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I can understand the FSD beta drivers (M3/Y) having camera issues but what does that have to do with the CT?
Agree we don't know about Cybertruck but Cybertruck is not first Tesla FSD vehicle. So far none of the others have true left/right corner cameras.

Someone saw a forward camera down low and the prototype has 2 rear facing camera down low and at least 2 cameras pretty high up compared to either the M3 or MY.
There seem to be enough forward facing cameras. It has three.

Obstructed views are going to happen no matter what.
Disagree.

Right now, especially when stopped at intersections with objects around the sides of the intersection there is significant blind spots for Tesla cameras that do not exist for human drivers.

FSD can not make safe decisions when it's view is blocked.

This is 2020s not 1990s. Today cameras have excellent image quality and are cheap. Especially when compared to risk of accident and injury to humans.

Neural Networks can not do all the FSD work if it does not have good data.

GIGO ( Garbage In Garbage Out ).

The existing Tesla camera suite is good for Autopilot on highways and major streets in most U.S. cities. Autopilot in cities with modern road infrastructure.

Visibility/Sight Distance
Visibility and sight distance are parameters central to the inherent safety of intersections, driveways, and other potential conflict points.
National Association of City Transportation Officials
https://nacto.org/publication/urban...on-design-elements/visibility-sight-distance/


For FSD to safely navigate smaller streets, entering major streets from smaller streets, driveways and alleys, the vehicle needs left/right cameras at the corner points of the vehicle.

Looks like Tesla was right about LIDAR & RADAR not being needed but Tesla vehicles do net more cameras.

Vision is bound by to the laws of physics. Unless the Tesla FSD cars are going to get X-ray cameras, they need more cameras when used in cities & suburbs.
 
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firsttruck

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But few people want to blame the blind corners when they can just blame the drivers for having the bad luck.
I try not to put my health, life, finances on luck except when there is no other way.

I try not to drive based on luck.


Again, if a car hits you while you're looking around the corner, it's that car's fault, not you for looking.
No, in most cases the police will assume the driver exiting the alley & entering the larger road is at fault unless the will be

Here are some videos from Canada. I only used them because they prepared some nice videos. Most U.S. have the same laws.

-------------------------------

SGI Canada | Saskatchewan driver's licensing and vehicle registration
Examples of crashes and fault: Yielding right of way

The examples in these articles show the rule of the road and who is typically, but not always, found at fault.
https://www.sgi.sk.ca/news?title=examples-of-crashes-and-fault--yielding-right-of-way

.....
How the rule is applied

When entering a street, road or highway from a private road, lane or alley, you must yield the right of way to any pedestrians on the sidewalk and to any vehicles on the street, road or highway. The driver must be able to judge the speed and distance of the other vehicle so that the movement can be made safely.

When there is a yield sign, the driver facing the sign must yield the right of way to any other motorist approaching the intersection, again judging the speed and distance of the approaching vehicle to ensure the movement can be made safely.

If a driver sees an oncoming vehicle but believes that the distance is great enough to enter onto the highway, however a collision occurs, the driver with the yield sign or that is entering onto the highway is normally deemed at fault.


** Must go to website to see play video examples 5 & 4

https://www.sgi.sk.ca/news?title=examples-of-crashes-and-fault--yielding-right-of-way

-----------

5.
Driver A was parked in an angled parking spot in front of a medical building. She testified that once she had backed her car out of the spot, and had put it in drive to start going, she was hit from behind by Driver B. Driver B testified that she was driving down the road looking for a parking spot, and she saw Driver A backing out, so she stopped, but she could not back up, as there were other cars behind her. The judge found that Driver A had entered the travelled roadway without sufficient time and space between her and approaching traffic to permit her to proceed forward before an impact occurred. At the time of impact, the question of whether she was fully out of the spot and in drive, or was in the process of backing out does not determine fault. Driver A had placed her vehicle in the driving lane, or was in the process of doing so, but vehicles already in that lane had the right-of-way. She was responsible for making sure she did not back out in such a way as to create a hazard for those approaching vehicles. Therefore, Driver A in backing out was at fault in placing herself in the way of approaching traffic without sufficient time and space to permit other vehicles to stop behind her, or to proceed following her without stopping once she had entered the roadway and begun to move forward.
** Driver A was found 100% at fault and assessed 6 SDR Points.

Tesla Cybertruck Need headlight/taillight side cams - Intersection fences/walls/shrubs/parked cars obstructions block FSD B-pillar camera view sgi-ex5-Screenshot_20211218_163320



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4.
Driver A claims that she was driving in the right lane, when a car that was parked next to the curb turned into her and hit her car. Driver B claims that her car was already in the driving lane, and that Driver A drove into her. The court accepted Driver A 's evidence that Driver B turned into her causing the collision. The court also looked at the damage to the 2 vehicles to determine where the vehicles were when they collided. It was Driver B's duty to yield the right of way to the vehicles already on the highway so the onus was on her to show the collision was not her fault.
** Driver B was found 100% at fault and assessed 6 SDR Points.


Tesla Cybertruck Need headlight/taillight side cams - Intersection fences/walls/shrubs/parked cars obstructions block FSD B-pillar camera view sgi-ex4-Screenshot_20211218_163320


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Jhodgesatmb

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You (@firsttruck) have an awful lot to say about teslas cameras, luck, obstructions, etc., but you don't seem to read responses. I am not against more cameras, i just don't think we know (and that certainly includes you) what will be on the Cybertruck. I mentioned other cameras that 'are' known for the Cybertruck, at least on the prototype. No one knowws what they will be used for. I mentioned obstructions because i see signs all the time that are obstructed by trees, improper placement, etc. no camera will fix that kind of problem so the AI will have to. Finally, when it comes to luck we are all driving with luck every day - there are just too many drivers on the road that aren't paying attention, don't know the laws, don't care about the laws, etc. to think that we can drive anytime/anywhere and avoid luck.
 


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Interesting discussion... What about putting a 360 degree camera on a stick out the front. Something like this on an airplane but with a camera ball at the end.

Tesla Cybertruck Need headlight/taillight side cams - Intersection fences/walls/shrubs/parked cars obstructions block FSD B-pillar camera view 1639871396499
 
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firsttruck

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Interesting discussion... What about putting a 360 degree camera on a stick out the front. Something like this on an airplane but with a camera ball at the end.

1639871396499.png
I think the plane is a French made Dassault Rafale
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dassault_Rafale

That long angled tube on the front is not for a camera.
That tube is a fuel intake port used during midair refueling from a fuel tanker aircraft.

Most competing aircraft just have the fuel port door directly on the top of plane's nose.
This can be difficult for pilots to focus on something so close to the pilots head and all keep focus out further so they do not crash into the tanker plane.

The Dassault Rafale's protruding fuel inlet port is supposed to make it easier for the pilot to fly the plane to connect to the air tankers refuel pipe outlet, more quickly, safely and make more space available in the nose for more sensors.

pictures of planes in Indian Defense Forces

Tesla Cybertruck Need headlight/taillight side cams - Intersection fences/walls/shrubs/parked cars obstructions block FSD B-pillar camera view das-raf-1-main-qimg-515812802dc30350266b4772eea940e0-pjlq

Tesla Cybertruck Need headlight/taillight side cams - Intersection fences/walls/shrubs/parked cars obstructions block FSD B-pillar camera view das-raf-2-main-qimg-ce06215598fdf2e5970001a7ecee9b2d-lq



Tesla Cybertruck Need headlight/taillight side cams - Intersection fences/walls/shrubs/parked cars obstructions block FSD B-pillar camera view afale_refuels_from_a_U.S._Air_Force_KC-10_Extender




Here is a earlier generation plane, French made Dassault Mirage 2000
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dassault_Mirage_2000

.....
A removable refueling probe can be attached in front of the cockpit, offset slightly to the right of centre.


Tesla Cybertruck Need headlight/taillight side cams - Intersection fences/walls/shrubs/parked cars obstructions block FSD B-pillar camera view das-mirage2000-1-220px-A_Kuwaiti_Mirage_2000C_fighter_aircraft_during_Operation_Desert_Storm.JPEG



HAL Tejas is an Indian multirole light fighter designed by the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) in collaboration with Aircraft Research and Design Centre (ARDC) of Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) for the Indian Air Force and Indian Navy.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HAL_Tejas


Tesla Cybertruck Need headlight/taillight side cams - Intersection fences/walls/shrubs/parked cars obstructions block FSD B-pillar camera view _Tejas_%28LA-5018%29_of_Squadron_18_Flying_Bullets


---------------------------------------------

Here is pics of aerial refuel

File: KC-135F refueling Mirage 2000 and F-18C 1994.JPEG From Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:KC-135F_refueling_Mirage_2000_and_F-18C_1994.JPEG


Tesla Cybertruck Need headlight/taillight side cams - Intersection fences/walls/shrubs/parked cars obstructions block FSD B-pillar camera view KC-135F_refueling_Mirage_2000_and_F-18C_1994



French air force Dassault Mirage 2000-5 aircraft during a refueling training mission over Djibouti
March 19, 2013
By Rafael
https://www.iloveplanes.com/french-...-aircraft-refueling-training-mission-djibouti


Tesla Cybertruck Need headlight/taillight side cams - Intersection fences/walls/shrubs/parked cars obstructions block FSD B-pillar camera view 1812a31b36741a39ee78e526cda59eec
 
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Crissa

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It's amazing how many times you can cite things that are just slightly but completely unlike the situation you say that FSD is doing.

FSD doesn't creep when there's a car visible.

But in every one of these cases, there is a car approaching that's visible.

And in none of these cars is the car moving in a creeping fashion.

That's why it doesn't apply to FSD which does it while no cars are visible.

FSD also would have all the video and be able to prove that no cars were visible and it was doing the safe thing.

-Crissa
 
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firsttruck

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2) There is not a legal lane in the US where two feet is going to change the chance of a crash to zero.
----------

Here are some sizes of traffic lanes ( main driving section, not side parking, not the entire street):

Some traffic lanes in U.S. towns & cities are only 8 ft ( 96") wide.
Most traffic lanes in U.S. towns & cities are 9 ft (108") - 10 ft wide.

-----------

Width of popular (or soon popular) Ford vehicles:

2022 Ford F-150 Lightning Technical Specs - Ford Media Center
Width – Excluding Mirrors (inches) 80
Width – Including Standard Mirrors (inches) 96
https://media.ford.com/content/dam/fordmedia/North America/US/product/2022/f-150-lightning/pdf/F-150_Lightning_Tech_Specs.pdf

2021 F-150 Technical Specs - Ford Media Center
Width - Excluding mirrors 79.9"
Width - Including standard mirrors 95.7"
https://media.ford.com/content/dam/fordmedia/North America/US/product/2021/f150/pdfs/2021-F-150-Technical-Specs.pdf

2021 Expedition Tech Specs - Ford Media Center
Width - Excluding mirrors 79.9"
Width - Including standard mirrors 93.4"
https://media.ford.com/content/dam/fordmedia/North America/US/product/2021/expedition/21Expedition_Tech_Specs.pdf

-----------


Not zero chance of a crash, but we are talking about an additional 2 ft not a total creep distance of 2ft. Significant increase risk of crash.

The length of the front of the vehicle may also require creep room.

Crash risk can rise significantly with an additional 2 ft.

1. Two feet is not the total creep amount into the cross-street lane

The two feet I mentioned is the possible difference in view from what the B-pillar can see vs what many human drivers can see when leaning forward.

That two feet does not include the distance from steering wheel/A-Pillar where a human driver could maximally see too the left to the front bumper. This distance is total of lengths of steering column, dash, hood/frunk, front bumper.

If the steering wheel to bumper length is 4 ft then the maximum possible creep needed if side view was severely obstructed by a wall or fence would be:

for human lean forward: 4 ft ( steering wheel to bumper is 4 ft )

for FSD B-Pillar camera: 6 ft ( steering wheel to bumper is 4 ft )

The above is absolute worse case.

Most intersections will not be that bad but sticking out two more feet because FSD side camera is so far back (B-Pillar) from a minimum 2-4 ft when cross traffic lane might only be 9-10 ft wide and many vehicles are 6-8 ft wide leaves very little slack space available for creeping.

An extra 2 ft for creeping is huge when maximum creep space available might zero.

----------

There are 6,302,865 intersections for the 497 urbanized areas in the United States.

Paper that did analysis

Multi-Scale Analysis of 27,000 Urban Street Networks: Every US City, Town, Urbanized Area, and Zillow Neighborhood
Geoff Boeing, School of Public Policy and Urban Affairs, Northeastern University
August 2018
https://arxiv.org/pdf/1705.02198.pdf

And here are the datasets built for the analysis
OSMnx Street Networks Dataverse
U.S. Street Network Analytic Measures

Metric and topological measures of the street networks of every US city/town, urbanized area, county, census tract, and Zillow-defined neighborhood. These variables are calculated from OpenStreetMap data using the OSMnx software.
Oct 1, 2018
https://dataverse.harvard.edu/dataverse/osmnx-street-networks

------------

Elon claims currently sold Tesla vehicles in the future could be used as FSD robotaxis, will be able to drive anywhere humans normally drive, and at least 10 times better than humans without needing street pre-mapping & blocking geo-fences restrictions like those used Waymo, Cruise, MobilEye an others.

The road system is designed to be driven by humans in standard cars.

Tesla vehicles to be used as FSD robotaxis need to see at least what human driver can.
 
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firsttruck

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I dare you to find a street (not an alley) in the US with lanes smaller than 10'. Most will be between 12-15'.
Nor strictly local residential streets that have no through traffic.

Only one. Too easy.

I already told you many less than 10ft lanes exist. Tons of 9 foot lanes and even 8 footers.
I do homework before I say something.

There are 6,302,865 intersections for the 497 urbanized areas in the United States.
Multi-Scale Analysis of 27,000 Urban Street Networks: Every US City, Town, Urbanized Area, and Zillow Neighborhood
Geoff Boeing, School of Public Policy and Urban Affairs, Northeastern University
August 2018
https://arxiv.org/pdf/1705.02198.pdf


Of the nation’s 4.1 million miles of public access roads, 2.9 million, or 71%, are in rural areas.
Rural Highways
July 5, 2018 R45250
https://www.everycrsreport.com/reports/R45250.html


----------------------

4% of highway agencies have used ** 8 ft lanes on urban arterials **
42% of agencies have used lanes of 9 ft or narrower

Effective Utilization of Street Width on Urban Arterials
Harwood, Douglas W.
National Cooperative Highway Research Program Report 330
Transportation Research Board
August 1990
https://onlinepubs.trb.org/Onlinepubs/nchrp/nchrp_rpt_330.pdf

----------------------


Not just 60 old streets but some streets purposely made less than 10 ft in last 20 years.
Not 9.999 ft but 9.0 ft.
Changed from 12 ft to 9.0 ft.

------

Relationship Between Lane Width and Speed
Review of Relevant Literature
Prepared for the Columbia Pike Street Space Planning Task Force
by the Parsons Transportation Group
September 2003
https://nacto.org/docs/usdg/review_lane_width_and_speed_parsons.pdf
.....
Several studies have reported the use of lanes 10 feet wide (or slightly narrower) with no perceived operational difficulties to buses and trucks. The following examples of narrow streets exist in Washington, D.C:
• 18th Street, NW, between E and K Streets, has average lane widths of 9.5 feet and carries 9
buses per hour during peak hours.

------

City of Victoria, B.C. Canada
Quadra Street corridor
2003

Tesla Cybertruck Need headlight/taillight side cams - Intersection fences/walls/shrubs/parked cars obstructions block FSD B-pillar camera view cityvictoria-quadrast-lane-restri-dia

Delabure, Brad; transportation planner, City of Victoria, B.C. Telephone conversation with
R. Dittberner, September 22, 2003.

Case study: Quadra Street corridor. As part of a landscaping and land-use revitalization project, the Quadra Street corridor was re-striped from a 4-lane section to a 5-lane section with a two-way left-turn lane.

The goal of the project was providing a two-way left-turn lane without sacrificing capacity. Average speeds dropped from 30 mph to 25 mph, but much of the speed drop can be attributed to new landscaping (including street trees) and revitalized commercial development along the corridor. The street is a major transit route and houses several delivery-intensive businesses, such as a furniture store. There have been only negligible operational problems with buses and trucks using the narrowed lanes.

----------------------

Nine Foot Travel Lanes in Practice
October 13, 2015
https://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2015/10/12/nine-foot-travel-lanes-in-practice
.....
So Walkable West Palm Beach wanted to figure out whether those claims that wide = safe and narrow = dangerous were actually true on nearby nine-foot-lane Forest Hill Boulevard. Haussmann continues:

An analysis of crash data obtained by Walkable WPB from FDOT for Forest Hill Boulevard also supports the theory that narrow lanes are as safe as wider lanes. For the 0.787 mile portion of Forest Hill Boulevard just east of the I-95 interchange to S. Dixie Highway there were 60 crashes from January 1, 2011 to December 31, 2013. [...] This crash rate is less than the average crash rate provided by FDOT.

----------------------

The Case for Narrow Lanes
Often as part of our advocacy work we request city planners re-think the standard width for lanes.
Submitted by Cynthia Armour
July 29, 2015
https://bikeeastbay.org/news/case-narrow-lanes

.....
Some streets in the Bay Area are already narrow, and operate without any issues. For example (note this is not an exhaustive list by any means!):
1. Hearst Ave, Berkeley: 9ft
2. 17th St, San Francisco: 9ft
3. 14th St, Oakland: 9-10ft


----------------------

Lane Width | National Association of City Transportation Officials
https://nacto.org/publication/urban-street-design-guide/street-design-elements/lane-width/

Q: How narrow can a lane be?
A: Lane widths of 10 feet are appropriate in urban areas and have a positive impact on a street's safety without impacting traffic operations. ... In select cases, narrower travel lanes (9–9.5 feet) can be effective as through lanes in conjunction with a turn lane.

----------------------

Mitigation Strategies For Design - Exceptions Lane Width ** allows 9ft for local
U.S. DOT - Federal Highway Administration |
FHWA Home / Safety / Geometric Design / Publications /
July 2007
https://safety.fhwa.dot.gov/geometric/pubs/mitigationstrategies/chapter3/3_lanewidth.cfm
 
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Crissa

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So you can only find a traffic calming project in BC, which isn't in the US, and would have safe sight lines.

Gotcha. You admit these intersections are rare, unsafe, and it's not the camera position that makes them so.

-Crissa
 
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firsttruck

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So you can only find a traffic calming project in BC, which isn't in the US, and would have safe sight lines.

Gotcha. You admit these intersections are rare, unsafe, and it's not the camera position that makes them so.
Now you are moving the goal posts.

You said
I dare you to find a street (not an alley) in the US with lanes smaller than 10'. Most will be between 12-15'.
I gave you multiple U.S. locations with major streets narrower than 10ft that were in use and I gave a government study that said a large % of urban/suburban areas in U.S. had some arterials streets with lane widths less than 10ft. Some even as narrow as 8 ft.

Whether you consider them too dangerous, the National Association of City Transportation Officials recommendations does allow 9ft lanes for new roads.

-----------------

California San Francisco Bay Area are already narrow, and operate without any issues. For example (note this is not an exhaustive list by any means!):
1. Hearst Ave, Berkeley: 9ft
2. 17th St, San Francisco: 9ft
3. 14th St, Oakland: 9-10ft

-----------------

West Palm Beach, Florida - parts of Forest Hill Boulevard

----------------

no perceived operational difficulties to buses and trucks. The following examples of narrow streets exist in Washington, D.C:
• 18th Street, NW, between E and K Streets, has average lane widths of 9.5 feet and carries 9
buses per hour during peak hours.

----------------------

4% of highway agencies have used ** 8 ft lanes on urban arterial **
42% of agencies have used lanes of 9 ft or narrower

Effective Utilization of Street Width on Urban Arterials
Harwood, Douglas W.
National Cooperative Highway Research Program Report 330
Transportation Research Board
August 1990
https://onlinepubs.trb.org/Onlinepubs/nchrp/nchrp_rpt_330.pdf

----------------------

Lane Width | National Association of City Transportation Officials
https://nacto.org/publication/urban-street-design-guide/street-design-elements/lane-width/

Q: How narrow can a lane be?
A: Lane widths of 10 feet are appropriate in urban areas and have a positive impact on a street's safety without impacting traffic operations. ...

In select cases, narrower travel lanes (9–9.5 feet) can be effective as through lanes in conjunction with a turn lane.


----------------------
 
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Crissa

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Now you are moving the goal posts.
Nope. You selected streets set with limits 25mph or less painted to be small lanes that have been downsized to give extrace space and sight lines.

In other words, they are not physically smaller. And you were saying 8' lanes that the car would have to push into - these are 10' painted lanes on 50' right of ways.

That you don't even know this makes you foolish.

-Crissa
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