Rolls-Royce to ban flippers

[cvalue13]

On the relevant point, all the agreement says (in any state) is this:

If, before you complete purchase, Tesla deems your intended purchase to be in bad faith for resale, then Tesla can decide to not sell you that unit.

If, after you complete purchase, Tesla seems your prior purchase was in bad faith for resale, then Tesla can refuse to sell you future units.

In either instance, Tesla has the power to refuse to sell you a unit you do not yet own.

Tesla has no power to do anything with respect to a unit you already own.

Not because they *couldnt* come up with terms to claw back units, but because those sorts of terms are easily gamed, difficult to enforce, difficult to defend from a PR perspective, and would have a cooling effect on purchases.

There’s no ethical consumption in capitalism, folks - it’s moral hazard turtles all the way down.

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[John K]

For 5 million, I will pay someone to buy my replacement. I think we are spend8 g too much energy worrying about flippers. Whether someone flips or does not, my CT will be ready at the same time either way.

Concert ticket scalpers are another matter. Specifically when they have an unfair advantage acquiring the tickets.

 

[charliemagpie]

For 5 million, I will pay someone to buy my replacement. I think we are spend8 g too much energy worrying about flippers. Whether someone flips or does not, my CT will be ready at the same time either way.

Concert ticket scalpers are another matter. Specifically when they have an unfair advantage acquiring the tickets.

Thats right, sport scalpers as well. Poles apart from flipping a few or a hundred out of a million.

Much ado about nothing. The issue of CT flipping will disappear like a smelly fart in a strong wind.

 

[HaulingAss]

Lets say for example I intended to rent them out for a period of time, determined that the business model was flawed but now the value of a used truck is greater than or exactly the same as a new one due to a supply/demand imbalance. I sell the vehicles into the open market at a price the market will bare.

Did I flip them?
Did I violate some moral code?

I'm not addressing this from a moral perspective, only the legal rights and responsibilities involved when you entered into the reservation agreement. It's up to Tesla to determine who is acting in bad faith and they have, and will, cut them off from any further purchasers. Just like Ford did with their high demand GT. Your ONLY real recourse, should they cut you off as a customer, would be to sue them. Because I doubt mediators would endorse the re-selling of multiple Cybertrucks if they had close to zero miles on them. That's because it would clearly be against the terms of the agreement you signed.

And, for the same reason, good luck with suing them in a court of law.

My guess is that Tesla would only enforce the contract you make with them if the vehicles being sold had hardly any miles on them. If you rented them out, and the trucks were definitely "used" when you decided to sell them, I doubt you even violate the legal terms of the agreement, the price you sold them for is immaterial.

is hertz flipping their cars by generating far more revenue than the purchase price and then selling them off into the open market?

Of course not, renting Cybertrucks doesn't violate the terms of the agreement and it's not acting in bad faith. Rental cars always get sold after a certain amount of time and/or mileage. So do personal vehicles. The problem is when you are selling what are essentially new vehicles, the fact that the title changes hands twice is not makes them used, under the terms of the agreement.

the people who ordered far more than I did (and I know two personally) with the sole intention of selling vehicles above retail price virtually at point of sale are what i would call flippers. There are a lot of these individuals or groups out there. Id wager a guess that 3-4% of the 2019 ish preorders fall into this category.

It doesn't matter what you call it, flipping is also against the terms of the agreement. Personally, I would call your description of your intentions "flipping" too, but the term you use to describe the behavior is immaterial as to whether Tesla has the right to refuse you as a customer. Of course they do if Tesla thinks you have acted in bad faith by only disguising your intent to re-sell with a bogus claim that you intended to rent them. The only real legal leg you might have to stand on is to try to prove discrimination on the grounds of sex, race, religion or other protected classes. And that's going to be hard to do if you've been violating the agreement by re-selling new Cybertrucks.

In America, businesses have the right to refuse service without cause as long as they are not violating your Constitutional rights. And, no, the right to life, liberty and pursuit of happiness does not include the right to buy a Cybertruck after you have violated the agreement. It's not a protected right.

 

[HaulingAss]

the agreement isn't legally binding at least in texas... can they refuse to sell to you YES for any reason at all... but when you sell goods in texas.. as long as you are selling the goods themselves and not just a license you can't stipulate what is done with those goods.

Obviously, you are not a lawyer. While it's true you can't stipulate after the fact what someone does with something you sold them, you most certainly can enter into a private agreement between two parties before the sale (which is exactly what a Purchase/Sale Agreement is). And those terms are as legally binding as any other agreement between two private parties.

Now you are certainly within your rights to attempt to get Tesla to sell you the goods without having to sign the purchase and sale agreement, or to use an alternative purchase/sale agreement without the clauses you do not agree to. Good luck with that.

You will have to show me where Texas law prevents consenting adults from entering into such a purchase and sale agreement. That would be an outrageous over-reach of State authority to prevent private parties from coming to such mutually agreed upon terms.

 

[HaulingAss]

Yes I do know what a flipper is, and it's not a good look!

 

[Crissa]

If you drive out in the farm.. and buy produce at a discount .. the travel into the city and sell at a premium people call you a good businessman; what is the difference?

Well, for one, you added value. You moved the produce from where there was a surplus to where there was not.

That's not the added value for the truck. With this truck you're specifically standing in line in front of the person you're selling to. You're interfering in the farmer selling their produce by making their line longer and making them do more work to support their produce sales.

Would you appreciate someone standing in front of your counter, intercepting all of your sales?

-Crissa

 

[Greshnab]

Well, for one, you added value. You moved the produce from where there was a surplus to where there was not.

That's not the added value for the truck. With this truck you're specifically standing in line in front of the person you're selling to. You're interfering in the farmer selling their produce by making their line longer and making them do more work to support their produce sales.

Would you appreciate someone standing in front of your counter, intercepting all of your sales?

-Crissa

you added value to the tesla you reserved at a time when others didn't AND you held onto that reservation and followed through to a time when there is a shortage of items and an excess of demand.. that is by the very definition value.

 

[HaulingAss]

Well, for one, you added value. You moved the produce from where there was a surplus to where there was not.

That's not the added value for the truck. With this truck you're specifically standing in line in front of the person you're selling to. You're interfering in the farmer selling their produce by making their line longer and making them do more work to support their produce sales.

Would you appreciate someone standing in front of your counter, intercepting all of your sales?

-Crissa

Haha! That's actually a good analogy! Now imagine a bunch of people at that produce stand, knowing there was going to be big demand for the produce when it was ripe, all standing in front of of you, making the line longer, and as soon as they got theirs, walking to the back of the line and offering to sell it to people who didn't have the time to wait.

And further imagine, that before those people at the front of the line bought the produce, they told the farmer the produce was for their family, and they weren't going to simply re-sell it to people at the back of the line!

Of course, when the farmer sees them marking up the produce and doing exactly what they said they were not going to do, they refuse to sell to them again.

I'm not sure why people are trying to make this seem complicated or like it's a grey area. It's pretty black and white according to both the reservation agreement and the purchase sale agreement that Tesla uses.

 

[Crissa]

you added value to the tesla you reserved at a time when others didn't AND you held onto that reservation and followed through to a time when there is a shortage of items and an excess of demand.. that is by the very definition value.

Uhh, no.

You having a reservation you don't plan on keeping is you getting in the way of other people.

You're selfishly interfering with the sales. It's not like fewer are going to be made now if you don't execute your reservation.

Also, you flipping doubles the work Tesla has to do to support their vehicle, first registering you, then registering your buyer. You're making additional work for Tesla for their one sale.

-Crissa

 

[charliemagpie]

Definitely flippers should be banned

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