Rolls-Royce to ban flippers

[SolarWizard]

We’re not talking about buying used vehicles and selling them at 20% plus
we’re talking about buying a new vehicle where there is a long wait list and selling it at a premium. Yes you do you. Point of this thread is auto makers options to ban the activity.

I dont disagree with the concept of banning flippers but flipping should defined.
selling above retail in a small period of time specifically should be a qualifier .
I still dont think the cybertruck is going to have much of it since they can produce so many

I wonder how many people are upset at the offer of Monroe & Associates to pay up to double the sticker price for a C to tear down.
now that is flipping

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[HaulingAss]

What I ultimately choose to do with all my reservations is ultimately my business.

Actually, you are wrong about that. Your reservation(s), from a legal perspective, are an agreement between you and Tesla. So, it's certainly not only your business, it's just as much Tesla's business. And they have shown an actual desire to enforce the clause you agreed to, specifically, the clause in which Tesla is the only retailer of the products they manufacture, and they have the right to refuse to do business with people they believe are not acting in good faith with respect to that.

So, ultimately, you made it Tesla's business how you handle your reservations when you entered into the reservation agreement. I had no idea you were so desperate to make a few bucks off the backs of all of us who are waiting in good faith for our reservation number to come up!

You would cut in front of us in line simply to violate your reservation agreement for a small profit?

 

[TBONO]

Actually, you are wrong about that. Your reservation(s), from a legal perspective, are an agreement between you and Tesla. So, it's certainly not only your business, it's just as much Tesla's business. And they have shown an actual desire to enforce the clause you agreed to, specifically, the clause in which Tesla is the only retailer of the products they manufacture, and they have the right to refuse to do business with people they believe are not acting in good faith with respect to that.

So, ultimately, you made it Tesla's business how you handle your reservations when you entered into the reservation agreement. I had no idea you were so desperate to make a few bucks off the backs of all of us who are waiting in good faith for our reservation number to come up!

You would cut in front of us in line simply to violate your reservation agreement for a small profit?

Oh gosh — sheriff is coming ?

 

[cvalue13]

You would cut in front of us in line simply to violate your reservation agreement for a small profit?

No, he’s going to let *me* cut in line, at no profit, if it turns out these things aren’t good for his intended fleet purposes - and a I’ll separately keep him whole on his FSD losses for a Tesla having f’d up rules about transferability of FSD

FSD isn’t part of the vehicle, remember?

may be a natural consequence of Tesla loosing true 3-across seating front and rear, if that turns out to be the case

 

[HaulingAss]

Nice! I’m all for it !
of course the occasional stray that decides against a new car they bought may get banned from the brand would be too bad, but hopefully Tesla has some data algorithm to help minimize that

I've never heard of Tesla cracking down on any owner who bought one car and then immediately sold it. It doesn't take a fancy algorithm to tell when someone is flipping multiple vehicles simply to make a buck. That's where Tesla has a history of stepping in and banning them for life.

 

[cvalue13]

Here's a thought experiment for the flipping confused:

Say on release day I made 3 CT reservations, because while I knew my brother and sister weren't smart enough to be paying attention, they ultimately would benefit from a vehicle as revolutionary as the CT.

This in mind, I make the pre-order deposits on 3 reservations, and when the time comes I execute on my 3 reservations with Tesla. The first I keep for myself, the second I pass on to my brother, and the third I pass on to my sister, both of whom keep me whole on what I've paid Tesla for the vehicles.

Am I a "flipper"? A "scalper"?

And if so, what exactly is the functional difference between me and someone who instead got 10 reservations with the intent to use 9 of them for a business of making money off the vehicle as a RoboTaxi or for leasing to day-trippers on the strip in Vegas?

Are you left feeling more frustrated that I purchased a vehicle for the use of my sister, or that "Tony's Wild Ridez Las Vegas" purchased a vehicle for a guy name Chad to cruise the strip one Saturday on a bachelor party weekend?


And regardless of how you feel, am I or the RoboTaxi orderer what Tesla's pre-sale "contract" was anticipating to prohibit, when it talks in terms of "bad faith" purchases?

 

[John K]

If I buy a car, use it, then sell for a loss, am I a flipper?

If I just buy, change my mind, sell for a loss, am I a flipper?

If I sell for a profit, keep the pen, I then become scum of the earth?

I am not annoyed with anyone reselling as long as they and I had the same initial purchase access.

 

[TBONO]

Here's a thought experiment for the flipping confused:

Say on release day I made 3 CT reservations, because while I knew my brother and sister weren't smart enough to be paying attention, they ultimately would benefit from a vehicle as revolutionary as the CT.

This in mind, I make the pre-order deposits on 3 reservations, and when the time comes I execute on my 3 reservations with Tesla. The first I keep for myself, the second I pass on to my brother, and the third I pass on to my sister, both of whom keep me whole on what I've paid Tesla for the vehicles.

Am I a "flipper"? A "scalper"?

And if so, what exactly is the functional difference between me and someone who instead got 10 reservations with the intent to use 9 of them for a business of making money off the vehicle as a RoboTaxi or for leasing to day-trippers on the strip in Vegas?

Are you left feeling more frustrated that I purchased a vehicle for the use of my sister, or that "Tony's Wild Ridez Las Vegas" purchased a vehicle for a guy name Chad to cruise the strip one Saturday on a bachelor party weekend?


And regardless of how you feel, am I or the RoboTaxi orderer what Tesla's pre-sale "contract" was anticipating to prohibit, when it talks in terms of "bad faith" purchases?

I like your examples

My point of view, is that the trucks you bought for your family you would not be flipping as that was the original intent. Also, your intent is not to profit from the sales.

on the Robo fleet, same thing not flipping as you intend to keep all the vehicles

I classify the flipper, someone who’s buying it simply to sell it at a higher cost, gaining a profit as their intent for buying and taking delivery of the vehicle

This is where the fancy algorithm comes in as it might be difficult to discern the difference in the family example you gave?

 

[TBONO]

If I buy a car, use it, then sell for a loss, am I a flipper?

If I just buy, change my mind, sell for a loss, am I a flipper?

If I sell for a profit, keep the pen, I then become scum of the earth?

I am not annoyed with anyone reselling as long as they and I had the same initial purchase access.

No
No
Yes

 

[cvalue13]

This is where the fancy algorithm comes in as it might be difficult to discern the difference in the family example you gave?

I'll go even further: must you show shared genetics to substantiate that on-sale?

what if you are an orphan, and all you're left with are people in your life you feel as close to as family?

if Tesla were concerned about such scenarios, they wouldn't have allowed individuals to pre-order multiple units. fundamentally, Tesla expressly allows people to reserve multiple units, even if the intent to purchase is purely based on profit making off the vehicle units: e.g., the RoboTaxi purchaser.

so people bellowing about "how could you jump in line in front of me just to make a buck" seem inherently inconsistent. almost anyone purchasing multiple units has some intent to profit off the vehicles. if you don't mind multiple reservations, what *is* it you actually care about?

What the Tesla agreement prohibits is bad faith purchasing for the intended purpose of making a profit off of the on-sale of the vehicle itself.

That's not why @SolarWizard reserved, it's not his intent in an on-sale, and to that extent it's permitted.

If anything, I'm far less concerned or irritated with someone like @SolarWizard on-selling at make-whole prices to his family and/or friends, than I am "Tony's Wild Ridez Las Vegas" reserving 20 units in order to turn CT's into profit center carnival rides.

But, Tesla has permitted and even encouraged "Tony's Wild Ridez Las Vegas" to purchase the CT only for profit-making purposes. If you're not upset at that, I don't see how you can be upset at a lot of scenarios where buyers will on-sale the vehicles.

 

[John K]

For 5 million, I am willing to go back to the end of the line…and pickup a roadster to tie me over.

 

[SolarWizard]

Actually, you are wrong about that. Your reservation(s), from a legal perspective, are an agreement between you and Tesla. So, it's certainly not only your business, it's just as much Tesla's business. And they have shown an actual desire to enforce the clause you agreed to, specifically, the clause in which Tesla is the only retailer of the products they manufacture, and they have the right to refuse to do business with people they believe are not acting in good faith with respect to that.

So, ultimately, you made it Tesla's business how you handle your reservations when you entered into the reservation agreement. I had no idea you were so desperate to make a few bucks off the backs of all of us who are waiting in good faith for our reservation number to come up!

You would cut in front of us in line simply to violate your reservation agreement for a small profit?

Brother please don’t misunderstand the situation. Im definitely not desperate to make money. My need to clip coupons ceased long ago.

I ordered a lot of trucks because originally they were the right size for me to carry a typical crew plus some for friends and family who otherwise would not have had the wherewithal to begin placing orders at the announcement. Even though you and I have a better understanding of what the CT could be, we are a distinct minority vs the general population.

I never asked tesla to reduce the size or double the price of FSD after ordering yet they openly promised to keep that agreed upon price on that option and have since doubled it.

Lets say for example I intended to rent them out for a period of time, determined that the business model was flawed but now the value of a used truck is greater than or exactly the same as a new one due to a supply/demand imbalance. I sell the vehicles into the open market at a price the market will bare.

Did I flip them?
Did I violate some moral code?

is hertz flipping their cars by generating far more revenue than the purchase price and then selling them off into the open market?

Neither vehicle manufacturing nor manufacturing in general is a zero sum game where the only parties who get to make money off a product or service are the originators.

the people who ordered far more than I did (and I know two personally) with the sole intention of selling vehicles above retail price virtually at point of sale are what i would call flippers. There are a lot of these individuals or groups out there. Id wager a guess that 3-4% of the 2019 ish preorders fall into this category.

Ultimately there are also even more people who put down $100 for some sort of bragging rights on social media or who could not then or can not now afford to buy one.
Everyone that actually wants to and can buy a cybertruck will ultimately get one and if anything people that come later will get vehicles that are better, so if someone wants to pay to jump the line, my perspective is that they can be my guest.

I personally wouldn’t ?‍

 

[Greshnab]

I have never uderstood the issue with flippers/scalpers; Once a sale is done, and goods and money have exchanged hands.. the goods belong to the purchaser and he may do with them what he wants.

If you drive out in the farm.. and buy produce at a discount .. the travel into the city and sell at a premium people call you a good businessman; what is the difference?

if tesla doesn't want people resaling their trucks don't allow multiple reservations from one person.. easy to solve.. if you REALLY want to spread out the trucks.. don't fulfill a second reservation for any one person till everyone has gotten at least one truck.. fairly simple to resolve these issues without any extra stipulations or threats.

 

[PilotPete]

I have never uderstood the issue with flippers/scalpers; Once a sale is done, and goods and money have exchanged hands.. the goods belong to the purchaser and he may do with them what he wants.

If you drive out in the farm.. and buy produce at a discount .. the travel into the city and sell at a premium people call you a good businessman; what is the difference?

if tesla doesn't want people resaling their trucks don't allow multiple reservations from one person.. easy to solve.. if you REALLY want to spread out the trucks.. don't fulfill a second reservation for any one person till everyone has gotten at least one truck.. fairly simple to resolve these issues without any extra stipulations or threats.

So, we’ve gone down the straw man path until it’s become a deep hole. People are going to game the system and people with money are going to take advantage of having money to get what they want and not wait. This happens in the Corporate Jet market as well. One company put a “tesla like” restriction in their purchase agreement, and those who made early reservation slots all converted their reservations to actual use purchases. So far, it’s worked.

It first comes down to intent. One of the hardest concepts to regulate and prove. Then it comes down to the original purchase agreement. Is it allowed? Finally, it comes down to an individual’s integrity and moral character. If you can read the agreement and know in your heart you aren’t crossing the line, then you’re good. If you know you’re crossing the line, or even really skirting it and still follow through with the transaction? Then let’s just say “You are what you are.” It’s only $100 and it is refundable. If you don’t want the dang thing, get your money back and have a nice day. If you have some excuse as to why you’re doing it, in the final analysis, you’re still doing it.

As far as once you buy it, it’s yours to do with as you see fit… That’s a very naive and simplistic viewpoint. If you sign a purchase agreement, or are leasing IP, then legally, it is FAR from yours to do with as you see fit. If you violate the terms of the agreement, you might be in trouble.

As for your “business straw man” above. Are you being honest with the farmer? Are they telling you it’s ok to resell? Or are they telling you that you can’t buy their product for resale? Are you properly licensed? Are you claiming the income on your taxes? Everyone has the opportunity to be above board or not. Honesty and Integrity are about doing the right thing, even when no one is looking.

 

[Greshnab]

the agreement isn't legally binding at least in texas... can they refuse to sell to you YES for any reason at all... but when you sell goods in texas.. as long as you are selling the goods themselves and not just a license you can't stipulate what is done with those goods.

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