F-150 Lightning Powering Houses for Days

[boomer45]

I have seen several references to Elon not wanting to reverse power a house from a Tesla mostly stating it would degrade the batteries. On the other hand, F-150 Lightning will have a 80 amp 240 Intelligent Backup Power System which will power a house for days. I really feel this is an important feature for the Cybertrk given it utility and large battery pack. I have held off buying a generator or Powerwall just with a hope that he will still make this happen.

https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/...ectric-pickup-intelligent-backup-power-house/

Turn main breaker off. Plug truck into a dryer outlet. Your lights come on. A few steps skipped (transfer switch etc) for simplicity sake but that’s how.

I originally installed a Gen 2 HPWC on a 100 A circuit in my existing garage and later added a second on that same circuit (as one could do with the Gen 2). I later built a separate "charging garage" for anticipated new BEV (R1T & CT) but they finished it before either arrived so it sits empty. In there I put a pair of Gen 3 HPWC each on its own circuit and a Wallbox Quasar unit for the Rivian. The Tesla units will charge the Rivian and the Quasar will charge the Tesla's.

There is absolutely no reason for urgency unless you are building something now and need to get wires in walls for neat concealment or something like that.

This makes me suspect that perhaps you are really asking about how I backup the house and/or charge when the utility is down.

The main house is equipped with solar backed up by the utility and a generator. I don't charge when the sun is in unless I have to and don't charge with the generator unless it is absolutely necessary which it never has been. The new garage is as much an experiment as a place to park and charge the cars. It is not connected to the utility thus it runs completely on solar when the sun is out and on Powerwalls (and I just had a call to the effect that the Powerwalls may be delivered in my lifetime) when it isn't. This system is backed up by a separate generator (and interestingly enough I had another phone message today that the generator has been delivered to the installer).

The main house generator connects to the main house through a transfer switch made by the generator manufacturer (Briggs and Stratton). In the new garage as there is no utility there is no need for a transfer switch as there is no possibility of islanding but the generator must be isolated from the system when solar is operating and so the "gateway" which normally does the transfer switch function in a Powerwall/utility system does generator isolation in an off grid system.

Where did you purchase the Wall Box QuasarIt is my understanding it is not available in USA ??. You will need an adapter for the Tesla in order to use it. It is a bidirectional smart charger. I hope Tesla offers a new bidirectional charger for Cybertruck.

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[ajdelange]

Where did you purchase the Wall Box Quasar.

.
I didn't. It was a Pulsar. Sorry about the confusion this goof may have caused.

 

[ajdelange]

The guy is an electrical engineer. I told him what he wanted someone to say.

Given that he is an electrical engineer he already knew how to make the interconnection so obviously his question was as to how to make it practically and safely.

 

[nadreggid]

This is why Elon needs to take this seriously. There are a lot of off-griders waiting for this.

 

[nadreggid]

No update or news on this topic? Way more important than mirrors.

 

[fhteagle]

Elon not wanting to reverse power a house from a Tesla mostly stating it would degrade the batteries.

That would be more correctly said that Tesla doesn't want to cut into power wall sales. There is zero technical reason why V2L and V2H capabilities is not sold in all Teslas today. Elon's bias against V2G is 80% ignorance / 20% accurate in my not so humble opinion. If utilities properly compensated end users for the value of behind the meter V2G at the same rates as they pay for other grid stabilization services, that ratio would drop to 98%/2%.

 

[Ogre]

That would be more correctly said that Tesla doesn't want to cut into power wall sales. There is zero technical reason why V2L and V2H capabilities is not sold in all Teslas today. Elon's bias against V2G is 80% ignorance / 20% accurate in my not so humble opinion. If utilities properly compensated end users for the value of behind the meter V2G at the same rates as they pay for other grid stabilization services, that ratio would drop to 98%/2%.

Way back on battery day, Musk said “Vehicle to grid sounds good but has much lower utility than people think”. I think this is the beginning and the end of his reasoning on this.

Look at Ford’s V2G solution with the F150. You buy the truck and you still have to spend $10k+ on home upgrades to support V2G. Guess what, for that money you can buy a Powerwall which does the same thing and is there 100% of the time.

There are certainly lower-budget solutions with generator switches (or the redneck dryer outlet solution), but that’s not the sort of solution Tesla is going to support. They are looking for mass market plug-and-play solutions.

 

[Crissa]

Look at Ford’s V2G solution with the F150. You buy the truck and you still have to spend $10k+ on home upgrades to support V2G. Guess what, for that money you can buy a Powerwall which does the same thing and is there 100% of the time.

...But if you plug a car into a Powerwall, your house stays toasty warm for days instead of just a few hours.

That's the big problem with his argument. You don't use the same power when you're not at the house. My fridge, network, use 3kWh per day. My television and stove added to that gets there in eight hours. A single space heater (let alone a whole house heat pump) uses that in half an hour!

And loads of homes can't have enough solar due to not enough roof space or being in the shadow of something and they want you to have solar to install a Powerwall.

-Crissa

And when I'm not traveling, the grid could use 20-40% of my battery and I'd never notice. 20% of a Model Y is a whole second Powerwall worth!

 

[Sirfun]

Way back on battery day, Musk said “Vehicle to grid sounds good but has much lower utility than people think”. I think this is the beginning and the end of his reasoning on this.

Look at Ford’s V2G solution with the F150. You buy the truck and you still have to spend $10k+ on home upgrades to support V2G. Guess what, for that money you can buy a Powerwall which does the same thing and is there 100% of the time.

There are certainly lower-budget solutions with generator switches (or the redneck dryer outlet solution), but that’s not the sort of solution Tesla is going to support. They are looking for mass market plug-and-play solutions.

Funny that you mention Elon's response to that question on battery day. Elon's public speaking (or public lying) is pretty transparent. That response made it obvious to most people that Elon was stumbling to come up with a way to cover up for the fact Tesla didn't want to cannibalize sales of Powerwalls.
Just recently Rivian announced their vehicles have V2H capability already built into them also. So by the time the Cybertuck goes into production. If Tesla drops the ball and doesn't have V2H, the marketers at Ford and Rivian will be very quick to point that out.
Here's an article about Rivian: https://www.thedrive.com/news/rivia...rectional-charging-via-software-update-report

 

[Crissa]

If they needed more powerwall sales, why limit it to people with existing solar?

-Crissa

 

[Ogre]

Funny that you mention Elon's response to that question on battery day. Elon's public speaking (or public lying) is pretty transparent. That response made it obvious to most people that Elon was stumbling to come up with a way to cover up for the fact Tesla didn't want to cannibalize sales of Powerwalls.
Just recently Rivian announced their vehicles have V2H capability already built into them also. So by the time the Cybertuck goes into production. If Tesla drops the ball and doesn't have V2H, the marketers at Ford and Rivian will be very quick to point that out.
Here's an article about Rivian: https://www.thedrive.com/news/rivia...rectional-charging-via-software-update-report

You are assuming that a lot of people care about this enough to spend the money to integrate their vehicle to their home. I seriously doubt this is the case. How many of those F150 buyers have bought the home integration stuff for $10k+? What do they do if their next truck is a Cybertruck? Spend another $10k? Keep the old F150 parked in their driveway?

I’ve seen very little evidence anyone aside from a few vocal folks care about this one way or the other. You want to make it out like Musk is trying to protect Powerwall sales, but they can’t even deliver the Powerwalls they have on order and haven’t been able to for years so that’s meaningless. If they’d opened up cars to V2G Powerwall sales would be exactly the same.

 

[Jhodgesatmb]

I am confused by many these comments that push for V2G when Elon and Drew are in agreement that Nickel-based cells will degrade faster with V2G. To me that is the end of the V2G story unless/until Tesla uses LFP cells in their cars (and for the CT he said they will not, and why).

Why would anyone think that Ford knows diddly about battery chemistry, especially given the news today that they have stopped production of the F-150 Lightning over battery concerns (like GM, Porsche, etc. before them).

One of our (all of us) main concerns is range, and tangential to range is battery pack lifetime. I understand why someone in the middle of nowhere would want to be able to run their house off the truck in an emergency, but how are they going to get the truck back to the charger? They would have to drain it only to the point where they know they can do that, or have a backup ICE car, or some such. They are better off having a powerwall and some solar cells, or a backup generator, to run the house, and save the expensive BEV for driving.

At the end of the day, I guess it comes down to whether you trust that Elon and Drew know what they are talking about. I do.

 

[NJturtlePower]

Look at Ford’s V2G solution with the F150. You buy the truck and you still have to spend $10k+ on home upgrades to support V2G. Guess what, for that money you can buy a Powerwall which does the same thing and is there 100% of the time.

Well, except for the fact you can't just buy a Powerwall anymore.... at least not from Tesla without a full solar install.

My biggest regret of going solar in 2019 (non-Tesla) was not getting a pair of Powerwall's while there were available a-la-carte. The PW seamlessly integrates into most solar systems with little extra costs unlike every other battery storage systems out there from LG, Generac, SolarEdge, etc. that would require inverter replacements or other hardware upgrades.

I got a quote from my solar installer recently for a Powerwall since the 30% federal credit is back on the table (Same as back in 2019) and got a figure of $26,500 for ONE! ?

 

[fhteagle]

Look at Ford’s V2G solution with the F150

Ford does not have a V2G solution. It's a V2H solution. The letters might only be 1 apart in the alphabet but they are miles apart in function and complexity.

Elon and Drew are in agreement that Nickel-based cells will degrade faster with V2G

So two people from the same company agree with the company line? No surprise and especially no credibility gained there.

There is absolutely an optimization tradeoff for fixed storage batteries between power and duration / depth of charge durability. Because they are trying to run those systems hard to get the LCOSS down as low as possible. An individual owner doing V2L a few times a week, or V2H once a month ish, or even V2G to 1-10% discharge a few times a year, is orders of magnitude less wear on the cells.

 

[tidmutt]

On the V2G/H discussion, I feel we should think big here. In fact, you might be able to argue that there is a role for regulation (sorry if that is a dirty word). Perhaps all EVs should have the capability at least. When you start to thinking about decent percentages of the vehicle fleet being made up of EVs you are talking about some pretty damn serious battery capacity sitting around idle. As a society it seems inefficient to waste all of that capability. I'm not saying people should be compelled to participate but sprinkle in a little incentive where people can participate in energy arbitrage using their vehicle batteries or at the least be compensated for their contribution to the grid as needed and it seems to be we have a resource that could greatly stabilize the grid, or so it seems to me.

The additional cycles used could be capped to appease those concerned about battery degradation. Once there are sufficient vehicles plugged in then I would think you wouldn't need much in the way of additional cycles from each vehicle.

As for the cost of the household wiring, economies of scale could drive that down I would think once you're talking about large numbers of homes utilizing the technology. What if it started being installed as standard in all new homes? The current high price doesn't have to be high forever and if EVs all came wired to support it we'd have a resource that could be utilized once the price for the household units dropped and significant penetration was achieved.

I'm just not sure why I would want to buy some additional, expensive household batteries when I have huge batteries sitting in my vehicles? At least in my locale.

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