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Musk on Affordable Electric Truck

Bill906

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I think this is where you believed Sandy said paint is not a significant savings in the fabrication process (I could be wrong). If so, he was referring to TIME, not cost. (cued to 11:50).

If Jordan didn't butt in I think we'd have gotten more clarification.
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hridge2020

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I think this is where you believed Sandy said paint is not a significant savings in the fabrication process (I could be wrong). If so, he was referring to TIME, not cost. (cued to 11:50).

If Jordan didn't butt in I think we'd have gotten more clarification.




















I say honor reservations placed with display prices..
 

anionic1

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That simple assertion is debatable.

Turning body into triple use exoskeleton eliminates steel frame weight, eliminates adding structure into non-struct body-on-frame(i.e. rollover), eliminates floorpan and bonus distributes shock force suspension loads throughout the entire exoskeleton.vs. frame shock tower mounts that localize onto frame rails.

Exoskeleton negative mass provides inertial energy gains which enables the vehicle to deliver superior performance metrics as a BEV truck.
Exoskeleton provides stiffness(measure of rigidity) which enables Tesla to remove metal in Cybertuck roof sections substituting transparent acoustic structural glass. That is further weight savings which accrue to negative inertial mass, lower center of gravity and improves he ability of the vehicle to deliver traction to ground.
Exoskeleton in addition to eliminating paint, paint department processes of drying and curing also impacts other departments within Tesla GigaFactory. From memory, exoskeleton eliminates over seventy-five bodyshop stations enabling Tesla to reduce manpower, robots altogether and significant compression of the total vehicle build time. Antidotally, this time impact is an order of magnitude shorter than any known OEM(VW=30hr TSLA==10hr) on an estimated basis.
Exoskeleton design affords bullet resistance(~9mm) due to the 30x cold rolled SS which converts directly to performance when Cybertruck engages Plaid mode! Antidotally, bulletproof resistance holds above 140mph in dystopian hail of gunfire.
Exoskeleton SS patina is natural needing no UV treatment, no polishing nor handwork matching luster to adjacent panels - ever. Patina is architectural cosmetic appearances inherent in all bare metal material that lends character that changes over time. Any manipulation of the bare material, treatment or additional coating to artificially achieve uniformity approaching that of a finish is an oxymoron, futile and more expensive adding maintenance costs to the SS finish onto ownership TCO.
In closing, exoskeleton provides a single orthogonal structural passenger vehicle design that universally scales from single, dual, tri, qaud motors and 4x2,4x4 and 6x6 variants over load ranges from ½ ton to 2 ½ ton truck applications with antidotal future uses beyond terrestial to water and space applications for Tesla. No mention is even alluded to .mil interest in bullet resistant BEV platform applications with FSD autonomy.

But yeah…its true exoskeleton only eliminates the paint. Its also true that paint elimination is not the only thing an exoskeleton does.
All the other advantages you mention have nothing to do with manufacturing. We are talking about the truck going through the plant being made. There is no evidence that fabricating a stainless steel "exoskeleton" will reduce much fabrication effort other than paint. There are still likely a similar amount of body parts to be assembled and all those body parts will be processed through forming equipment. People act like the exoskeleton is going to get quickly folded up like origami as a single layer and that will not be the case.

I saw the truck in person there are numerous joints. The exoskeleton will be assembled just like any other unibody truck with interior steel body panels as well, but they simply have a different shape and strength profile. This one really ruffles feathers. My bet is that there will be a fairly substantial interior steel body and my guess is that they will use a structural galvanic corrosion prohibiting adhesive to connect the thick stainless "exoskeleton" to to complete the frame. in some of the images you can see interior steel painted body parts

You should go buy a sheet of 30x stainless at your local metal store. There will be scratches and imperfections in the sheen from manufacturing. Tesla will not sell a vehicle that has an imperfect body. It may just be buffing it to a certain grit level and washing it, but there will be some process. I bet they will even sell a buffing compound that matches the finish so you can repair and match the finish at home if needed.
 

charliemagpie

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Besides, if folding takes time, you add more machines to compensate. There's no lack of space !

No different to a production line, where you have more people in some sections to keep the flow going.

Let the experts worry about throughput
 


anionic1

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This is news to... the news.

Also, it's Munro who said that folding was quicker and more accurate than stamping.

-Crissa
Seems like there is a lot of great stamping going on and not a lot of folding. So I will believe it when I see it.
 

anionic1

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Sandy has several decades of experience vehicle manufacturing.
Munro Assoc company is not a one man operation (Sandy), he has several experts covering many relevant disciplines.

The 2020Jan Autoline Daily interview of Sandy had several other industry experts. When Sandy showed them a ICE Ford F-150 vs Tesla Cybertruck comparison, these experts who worked in ICE vehicle industry did not object to the estimate of $500m for paint shop for F-150 class vehicles.




I watched every Munro video. Several times over last two years Sandy has said paint & paint shop add significant costs.


Cybertruck Stainless steel exoskeleton saves
$300-450 per vehicle in direct prep & paint cost
$500M in paint shop capital expense
No large scale paint shop gives significant saving in factory floor space

Save millions of dollars in capital cost for elimination of stamping presses for exterior panels.
* there will still be some stamping presses for interior panels.

truck weighs less for similar bed load & towing capability.

All capEx ( capital equipment expense ) has to be allocated over all vehicles produced so significantly higher capex makes each vehicle measureably more expensive.


-------------------------

Matt Joyce@matty_mogul
2020 Jan 18


Sandy Munro analysis:
600k @Ford F150s
$50M Dies
$65M Body Shop
$500M Paint Shop
————————
$615M Cap Ex

600k @Tesla Cybertrucks
$30M Dies
$35M Body Shop
$60M Paint Shop
————————
$125M Cap Ex

No wonder @elonmusk doesn’t want to paint Cybertruck! ? Next auto revolution? CAP EX.


-------------------------

Sandy Munro: Tesla Cybertruck SpaceX tech, bullet proof windows, crash safety, and battery magic Dec 18, 2019
Sean Mitchell

-----




-------------------------


Deconstructing The Tooling Cost on Tesla’s Cybertruck - Autoline After Hours
Jan 16, 2020
Autoline Network

---------




-------------------------
I'm pretty sure when he said that it was in regards to time. Meaning there's no significant time savings in a non-painted vs. painted chassis. There is definitely a savings in capital cost. I believe there is also significant cost savings per vehicle.

<I wrote this post last night but forgot to hit "Post reply" until now. while reading through this thread I kept saying "didn't I post about this..">
There is no way a 3mm stainless steel body is cheaper than a painted steel body. I buy a lot of steel paneling and painted steel is always cheaper. Let alone a steel that is 3x thicker. If you put the new lighting body and the CT body side by side. The lighting body will be much cheaper to produce
 

anionic1

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Sandy has several decades of experience vehicle manufacturing.
Munro Assoc company is not a one man operation (Sandy), he has several experts covering many relevant disciplines.

The 2020Jan Autoline Daily interview of Sandy had several other industry experts. When Sandy showed them a ICE Ford F-150 vs Tesla Cybertruck comparison, these experts who worked in ICE vehicle industry did not object to the estimate of $500m for paint shop for F-150 class vehicles.




I watched every Munro video. Several times over last two years Sandy has said paint & paint shop add significant costs.


Cybertruck Stainless steel exoskeleton saves
$300-450 per vehicle in direct prep & paint cost
$500M in paint shop capital expense
No large scale paint shop gives significant saving in factory floor space

Save millions of dollars in capital cost for elimination of stamping presses for exterior panels.
* there will still be some stamping presses for interior panels.

truck weighs less for similar bed load & towing capability.

All capEx ( capital equipment expense ) has to be allocated over all vehicles produced so significantly higher capex makes each vehicle measureably more expensive.


-------------------------

Matt Joyce@matty_mogul
2020 Jan 18


Sandy Munro analysis:
600k @Ford F150s
$50M Dies
$65M Body Shop
$500M Paint Shop
————————
$615M Cap Ex

600k @Tesla Cybertrucks
$30M Dies
$35M Body Shop
$60M Paint Shop
————————
$125M Cap Ex

No wonder @elonmusk doesn’t want to paint Cybertruck! ? Next auto revolution? CAP EX.


-------------------------

Sandy Munro: Tesla Cybertruck SpaceX tech, bullet proof windows, crash safety, and battery magic Dec 18, 2019
Sean Mitchell

-----




-------------------------


Deconstructing The Tooling Cost on Tesla’s Cybertruck - Autoline After Hours
Jan 16, 2020
Autoline Network

---------




-------------------------
Most of that doesn’t make any sense. You would believe they could buy 2100 acres and build a 5M sf facility for just over $1B and the paint shop would cost $500M. Or half the cost of gigs texas. I do a lot of construction. A Lot. I can buy one of the nicest commercial spray booths for $100k. Now obviously Tesla has a much more complicated booth and process, but something is wrong with that $500M number. Also, has anyone asked Sandy why there is a $60M paint shop in his analysis for a truck that doesn’t get painted.
 

firsttruck

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...
I can buy one of the nicest commercial spray booths for $100k.
$100K booths are hobbyist level compared to the high-speed ultra high quality complete automated systems at high volume vehicle factories. Just one of the robots is probably more than $100K.


Also, has anyone asked Sandy why there is a $60M paint shop in his analysis for a truck that doesn’t get painted.
Sandy did explain the difference between the $60M & $500M.

$60M paint shop is for painting of individual vehicle components. Parts used internally or in under-body. These are parts customers usually never see while vehicle is driven or parked.
This paint shop is much smaller than the $500M shop and the paint job is primarily for corrosion protection. No high-gloss multi-coats.

$500M high-speed ultra high quality complete automated system is for full-size vehicle exterior & interior ( body in white ) with exterior getting high quality multi coat hi-gloss exterior paint. Also a huge part of the cost of paint shop is the air & water environmental protection systems ( Zero Environmental Impact Paint Shop ).

The Geico Taikisha is supplying Tesla Berlin with a complete automated system.


** some interesting videos clips on this page
Geico develops fully customizable turnkey systems thanks to tailor-made layouts that simplify and optimize the design phase, meeting the needs of the individual customer.
https://geicotaikisha.com/en/paintshop-solutions/paintshop/


Geico Taikisha plants around the world
https://geicotaikisha.com/en/references/our-references/our-plants-around-the-world/


The following videos show part of what a $500M painting system operation looks like.

----------


A Look Inside the Paint Shop of Tesla Gigafactory in Shanghai
Date: 04/11/2021
Author: Barbara Pennati

https://www.ipcm.it/en/post/a-look-into-the-paint-shop-of-tesla-gigafactory-shanghai.aspx


----------


Inside Tesla’s Gigafactory Shanghai Insane Paint Shop
Nov 1, 2021
Jay in Shanghai




----------


Tesla Paint Team - Gigafactory Berlin-Brandenburg
Tesla's latest video shows off its Paint Team at Giga Berlin in Germany. Video credit: Tesla LinkedIn
Come join the Paint Team at Gigafactory Berlin-Brandenburg!
https://www.linkedin.com/posts/tesl...brandenburg-activity-6896925193952919552-rP5V

Feb 8, 2022
Tesla North




----------
 
Last edited:

Ogre

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Here is is at 0:39 in the video @firsttruck posted.

Tesla Cybertruck Musk on Affordable Electric Truck 1646978792825


That kind of robot-arm buffer is likely the entire “finishing” step on the Cybertruck. Just enough to give the truck a uniform polished finish.

Here’s another shot of the robo-polishers from the second video.

Tesla Cybertruck Musk on Affordable Electric Truck 1646981311408
 
Last edited:


anionic1

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100K shops are hobbyist level compared to the high-speed ultra high quality shops at high volume vehicle factories.




Sandy did explain the difference between the 60M & 500M.

60M paint shop is for painting of individual vehicle components. Parts used internally or in under-body. These are parts customers usually never see while vehicle is driven or parked.
This paint shop is much smaller than the 500M shop and the paint job is primarily for corrosion protection. No high-gloss multi-coats.

500M paint shop if for full-size vehicle exterior & interior ( body in white ) with exterior getting high quality multi coat hi-gloss exterior paint. Also a huge part of the cost of paint shop is the air & water environmental protection systems ( Zero Environmental Impact Paint Shop ).

The Geico Taikisha is supplying Tesla Berlin with a complete automated system.


** some interesting videos clips on this page
Geico develops fully customizable turnkey systems thanks to tailor-made layouts that simplify and optimize the design phase, meeting the needs of the individual customer.
https://geicotaikisha.com/en/paintshop-solutions/paintshop/


Geico Taikisha plants around the world
https://geicotaikisha.com/en/references/our-references/our-plants-around-the-world/


The following videos show part of what 500M paint shop operation looks like.

----------


A Look Inside the Paint Shop of Tesla Gigafactory in Shanghai
Date: 04/11/2021
Author: Barbara Pennati

https://www.ipcm.it/en/post/a-look-into-the-paint-shop-of-tesla-gigafactory-shanghai.aspx


----------


Inside Tesla’s Gigafactory Shanghai Insane Paint Shop
Nov 1, 2021
Jay in Shanghai




----------


Tesla Paint Team - Gigafactory Berlin-Brandenburg
Tesla's latest video shows off its Paint Team at Giga Berlin in Germany. Video credit: Tesla LinkedIn
Come join the Paint Team at Gigafactory Berlin-Brandenburg!
https://www.linkedin.com/posts/tesl...brandenburg-activity-6896925193952919552-rP5V

Feb 8, 2022
Tesla North




----------
Ok. Maybe I can see the $500M.
 

anionic1

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Ok. Maybe I can see the $500M.
I don’t know. I have a 20 acre water park, a 200+ unit luxury apartment with a grocery store, retail and office building in LA, completely renovating and structurally retrofitting two mid rises in LA including repainting the entire exteriors of both with high performance paints, a new stadium facility, and a luxury senior living facility with 8 floor of concrete currently sitting on my desk and kicking off this year and they all barely pass combined around $600M. It’s just really hard for me to believe that their paint facility is $500M. I am building a 20 acre water park for well under $100M. There are 50 something massive pumps and filtration plants and piping duct banks as wide as a freeway.
 

Ogre

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I don’t know. I have a 20 acre water park, a 200+ unit luxury apartment with a grocery store, retail and office building in LA, completely renovating and structurally retrofitting two mid rises in LA including repainting the entire exteriors of both with high performance paints, a new stadium facility, and a luxury senior living facility with 8 floor of concrete currently sitting on my desk and kicking off this year and they all barely pass combined around $600M. It’s just really hard for me to believe that their paint facility is $500M. I am building a 20 acre water park for well under $100M. There are 50 something massive pumps and filtration plants and piping duct banks as wide as a freeway.
Exactly how many high precision robots are you installing?
 

anionic1

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$100K booths are hobbyist level compared to the high-speed ultra high quality complete automated systems at high volume vehicle factories. Just one of the robots is probably more than $100K.




Sandy did explain the difference between the $60M & $500M.

$60M paint shop is for painting of individual vehicle components. Parts used internally or in under-body. These are parts customers usually never see while vehicle is driven or parked.
This paint shop is much smaller than the $500M shop and the paint job is primarily for corrosion protection. No high-gloss multi-coats.

$500M high-speed ultra high quality complete automated system is for full-size vehicle exterior & interior ( body in white ) with exterior getting high quality multi coat hi-gloss exterior paint. Also a huge part of the cost of paint shop is the air & water environmental protection systems ( Zero Environmental Impact Paint Shop ).

The Geico Taikisha is supplying Tesla Berlin with a complete automated system.


** some interesting videos clips on this page
Geico develops fully customizable turnkey systems thanks to tailor-made layouts that simplify and optimize the design phase, meeting the needs of the individual customer.
https://geicotaikisha.com/en/paintshop-solutions/paintshop/


Geico Taikisha plants around the world
https://geicotaikisha.com/en/references/our-references/our-plants-around-the-world/


The following videos show part of what a $500M painting system operation looks like.

----------


A Look Inside the Paint Shop of Tesla Gigafactory in Shanghai
Date: 04/11/2021
Author: Barbara Pennati

https://www.ipcm.it/en/post/a-look-into-the-paint-shop-of-tesla-gigafactory-shanghai.aspx


----------


Inside Tesla’s Gigafactory Shanghai Insane Paint Shop
Nov 1, 2021
Jay in Shanghai




----------


Tesla Paint Team - Gigafactory Berlin-Brandenburg
Tesla's latest video shows off its Paint Team at Giga Berlin in Germany. Video credit: Tesla LinkedIn
Come join the Paint Team at Gigafactory Berlin-Brandenburg!
https://www.linkedin.com/posts/tesl...brandenburg-activity-6896925193952919552-rP5V

Feb 8, 2022
Tesla North




----------
These videos just made me appreciate my cars paint job more. They clearly put a lot of work into getting it right.
 

Crissa

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Seems like there is a lot of great stamping going on and not a lot of folding. So I will believe it when I see it.
No one said there would be no stamping. Just that the stainless exoskeleton isn't stamped, but folded.

-Crissa
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