Battery Replacement

Crissa

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As you can see, the battery warranty doesn't match battery performance. (And they vary wildly by time and place)


-Crissa
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John K

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The day before warranty ends, either time or mileage… T-437 breakdown.

 

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As you can see, the battery warranty doesn't match battery performance. (And they vary wildly by time and place)

-Crissa
But we don't know what the 4680 cells will do yet. Maybe they will last alot longer?
 

Diehard

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As you can see, the battery warranty doesn't match battery performance. (And they vary wildly by time and place)


-Crissa
Great video. One part of it bugged me a bit though:

Look at the chart they used to make a point. If by Cycle they are referring to how many times the battery was discharges from 75% to 65% in case of the white line, their conclusion does not add up for me. Horizontal axes should be kWh (miles covered, or another measure of work performed). At 4000 Cycles, the redline has done 15% more work than yellow line but it’s capacity has dropped by only 7% More. At 4000 Cycles the red line has done 65% more work than white line but has dropped capacity by only 16% more. The study is meaningless unless capacity is compared for the same amount of work or total power used.

I have a hard time believing they would miss something this obvious so I must be missing something. What am I missing?

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CyberMoose

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What Tesla battery warranty is to 80% vs 70% of original capacity?

This is directly from the Tesla Site.

Battery and Drive Unit Warranty
The Battery and Drive Unit in your vehicle are covered for a period of:

Model S
Model X
8 years or 150,000 miles, whichever comes first, with minimum 70% retention of Battery capacity over the warranty period.
Model 3 Standard Range8 years or 100,000 miles, whichever comes first, with minimum 70% retention of Battery capacity over the warranty period.
Model 3 Long Range
Model 3 Performance
Model Y Long Range
Model Y Performance
8 years or 120,000 miles, whichever comes first, with minimum 70% retention of Battery capacity over the warranty period.


These warranties cover the repair or replacement necessary to correct defects in the materials or workmanship of any parts manufactured or supplied by Tesla, which occur under normal use.

So the way I read this, Tesla offer more miles, but Kia offers more time and both use the 70% rule.
If Tesla has 500 miles, 70% is still 350 miles and will beat a lot of their competition. If they make it to 600+ miles, that's at least 420 miles remaining.

From what i've seen of a lot of videos looking at Tesla battery retention, it doesn't look like people are getting close to that 70% mark after driving close to 100,000 miles. This is also videos of people who clearly do a lot more driving than most people since they are nearing 100,000 miles after 2-3 years of owning their vehicles. That probably means that they are also using a supercharger a lot which is fine but not optimal for the batter. If someone is just using a Tesla wall charger all the time and uses superchargers rarely when they are going long distances, the battery will probably have much better retention.

It is nice to know that if your Tesla appears to be one of the few that has a battery degrading faster than the norm, you can get a brand new battery which you could get right before the warranty runs out.
 

lancethibault

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If Tesla has 500 miles, 70% is still 350 miles and will beat a lot of their competition. If they make it to 600+ miles, that's at least 420 miles remaining.

From what i've seen of a lot of videos looking at Tesla battery retention, it doesn't look like people are getting close to that 70% mark after driving close to 100,000 miles. This is also videos of people who clearly do a lot more driving than most people since they are nearing 100,000 miles after 2-3 years of owning their vehicles. That probably means that they are also using a supercharger a lot which is fine but not optimal for the batter. If someone is just using a Tesla wall charger all the time and uses superchargers rarely when they are going long distances, the battery will probably have much better retention.

It is nice to know that if your Tesla appears to be one of the few that has a battery degrading faster than the norm, you can get a brand new battery which you could get right before the warranty runs out.
I posted that chart because it was mentioned that the Tesla's battery warranty was for 80%, which it is not.

Regarding how the the CT range is better then the other EV truck competition doesn't really matter to me except in the context of the CT being the only full size EV truck that can get me 500 miles. In general it's safe to say that as a current full size truck owner (and one who has been for the majority of my life) I'm more concerned with how the CT3 stacks up against the ICE competition, not just for performance and cost, but also for practicality and real world use. I mentioned this earlier in the thread or maybe on another thread, but for the consumer in me, I'm not even considering anything with a range under 500 miles. That's what I'm paying for in an EV and that 500 needs to stay very close to 500 as a guaranteed range for as long as I'll have the truck...15 years or so.

I know ICE engines become less efficient over time also. But no way in hell would a buy an ICE truck with an EPA rated 17 MPG that was then only guaranteed 11.9 MPGs after 8 years or 100k, or 150k, whichever comes first. Or in the context of total range; I would not buy a truck with a 32 gallon tank and EPA rated 17 MPGs for a range of 544 miles that was only guaranteed 380 miles after 8 years. My F150 was 8 years old when I put 35s on it late last year. I was still getting 100% of the EPA range (17 MPG) at that time. Even with the 35s today, I'm still getting about 480 miles per tank (avg 15 MPGs). That's 90% after 8 years and an upgrade to much larger tires. My commute the past 10 days has been easy rolling hills, 14 miles each way and only 4 stop signs, with a 50 MPH speed limit. Driving 55 I'm getting 17.7 MPG. Tell me I can upgrade the stock 35s on the CT3 to 37s and get better advertised MPGs after 8 years and you'll be convincing me that they might actually be on to something here :p

I won't get into the gas tank vs battery replaceability and associated costs, because I don't think that is a fair argument, but there are some things to be said for it in terms of practicality.
 

Crissa

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Yeah, but how much time/money did you put into maintaining your F150 in its life? How much do you pay to fill the tank every day? How much has fuel increased in price? Isn't that kinda like losing range? Your dollar to mile driven only gets worse...

-Crissa
 

lancethibault

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Yeah, but how much time/money did you put into maintaining your F150 in its life? How much do you pay to fill the tank every day? How much has fuel increased in price? Isn't that kinda like losing range? Your dollar to mile driven only gets worse...

-Crissa
Not the same. I can buy at least 10 years, maybe 15 years worth of gas for the premium price of the CT3. The remaining maintenance isn't really that much. With 70% range I don't even have the option to pay more to drive just as far. The point is that I need 500 miles of range with a full tank or full charge. That is less of an issue with an ICE truck then it is with even the best EV truck marketed.
 

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Tell me I can upgrade the stock 35s on the CT3 to 37s and get better advertised MPGs after 8 years and you'll be convincing me that they might actually be on to something here :p
I would love it if the Cybertruck came with 35" tires, it might as an option. I personally want my Cybertruck to look exactly like how it rolled out on stage and then i'll customize it later.

Also it's fairly uncommon for a truck to gain MPG from increasing a tire size. However it could be a fake increase. You're saying that you went from 15MPG to 17.7MPG by adding 35" tires. If you upgraded from a pretty standard F150 stock tire to a 35" tire, that's approximately a 14-15% increase in circumference that your odometer would be off and your mileage calculator. bringing you up to about 17.1-17.3MPG even if your true MPG didn't change at all. Now i'm also guessing you didn't replace brand new tires with 35" tires, and tires definitely affect gas milage depending how worn they are, you could easily get a couple MPG from getting new tires if the old ones were even close to when they need to be replaced.

With all that information, it's likely that you actually lost efficiency from the upgrade, which is pretty standard from larger tires, but your odometer and gas mileage calculator is lying to you.
 

lancethibault

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I would love it if the Cybertruck came with 35" tires, it might as an option. I personally want my Cybertruck to look exactly like how it rolled out on stage and then i'll customize it later.

Also it's fairly uncommon for a truck to gain MPG from increasing a tire size. However it could be a fake increase. You're saying that you went from 15MPG to 17.7MPG by adding 35" tires. If you upgraded from a pretty standard F150 stock tire to a 35" tire, that's approximately a 14-15% increase in circumference that your odometer would be off and your mileage calculator. bringing you up to about 17.1-17.3MPG even if your true MPG didn't change at all. Now i'm also guessing you didn't replace brand new tires with 35" tires, and tires definitely affect gas milage depending how worn they are, you could easily get a couple MPG from getting new tires if the old ones were even close to when they need to be replaced.

With all that information, it's likely that you actually lost efficiency from the upgrade, which is pretty standard from larger tires, but your odometer and gas mileage calculator is lying to you.
No. Not what I meant to say. I went from 17 MPGs stock to 15 MPGs when I added the 35s. But this week or so my commute has been in very ideal conditions and I've been getting 17.7 MPGs for over the last 150 or so miles. If the truck was still stock, I'd probably be getting over 20 MPGs.
 

Crissa

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Not the same. I can buy at least 10 years, maybe 15 years worth of gas for the premium price of the CT3.
...You can buy the truck and the fuel and the maintenance for the same price as fifteen years of a Cybertruck?

Say your truck is 20 years old. Well, in 2001 $1 of gas would get you about a half gallon. So your 17mpg was 9mp$. Today, $1 gets you 1/3 of a gallon... so your 17mpg is now 5.6mp$. That's a heck of a reduction in range.

-Crissa
 
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CyberMoose

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No. Not what I meant to say. I went from 17 MPGs stock to 15 MPGs when I added the 35s. But this week or so my commute has been in very ideal conditions and I've been getting 17.7 MPGs for over the last 150 or so miles. If the truck was still stock, I'd probably be getting over 20 MPGs.
Oh well then I'm not sure what you mean by wanting to put 37" tires and get better MPGe than advertised after 8 years.

I will say that that conditions matter more in an electric vehicle than they do in an ICE vehicle obviously. Too hot and the battery can limit acceleration to avoid overheating. Too cold and obviously all batteries suffer in cold weather. So if we get 500+ miles on an average day with average driving, we'll get even more in ideal conditions on flat smooth roads.

That should improve with future Tesla models, including the Cybertruck now that Tesla has upgraded their Thermal Management System.

But overall, the battery will degrade overtime. I'd estimate between 5% and 20% after 8-10 years depending on use. If you are constantly towing, going on long trips, supercharging all the time, charging up to 100%, you will probably lose more battery life than most people. If you just drive regularly, use it as a daily drive, tow occasionally, be conscious of your charging habits, you will probably be fine.

On the other hand, you are saying that 500 miles is very important to you, but if it is at 500 miles, a 90% charge only gets you 450 miles. You would need 560+ miles just to have 500 miles at 90%. it would be amazing if we actually get 610 miles because then an 85% charge gets over 500 miles.
 
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lancethibault

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Oh well then I'm not sure what you mean by wanting to put 37" tires and get better MPGe than advertised after 8 years.
It was a joke...hence the goof face after the sentence.

On the other hand, you are saying that 500 miles is very important to you, but if it is at 500 miles, a 90% charge only gets you 450 miles. You would need 560+ miles just to have 500 miles at 90%. it would be amazing if we actually get 610 miles because then an 85% charge gets over 500 miles.
Yes, that 500 is extremely important to me. I've made several posts talking about why that is the case. I know the range will vary depending on how I drive and the road conditions and the weather, etc.

When the full specs are released...
1) If it's not at least EPA rated for 500 miles, I'm out.
2) If the CT battery warranty is the same as the current warranties (70%, 8 years and 100k or 150k miles) even 70% of 600 miles is only 420 miles of guaranteed range. I'm out.
3) If they change the warranty to 70%/15 years or 250k miles then we're moving the needle but not enough. I'm out.
4) I want the CT battery warranty to read 15 years or 250k miles, whichever comes first, with minimum 80% retention of battery capacity over the warranty period.
6) 80% of 500 miles, is still only 400 miles. I'm out.
7) 80% of 550 miles, is 440 miles. I'd think about it.
8) 80% of 600 miles, is 480 miles. I'm in!

Nobody said selling to trucks owners was easy. If we end up somewhere between where I said I'm out vs where I said I'm in. I'll have to think about it. I'm preparing myself for the letdown, but I'm hopeful Tesla overdelivers.
 

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It was a joke...hence the goof face after the sentence.



Yes, that 500 is extremely important to me. I've made several posts talking about why that is the case. I know the range will vary depending on how I drive and the road conditions and the weather, etc.

When the full specs are released...
1) If it's not at least EPA rated for 500 miles, I'm out.
2) If the CT battery warranty is the same as the current warranties (70%, 8 years and 100k or 150k miles) even 70% of 600 miles is only 420 miles of guaranteed range. I'm out.
3) If they change the warranty to 70%/15 years or 250k miles then we're moving the needle but not enough. I'm out.
4) I want the CT battery warranty to read 15 years or 250k miles, whichever comes first, with minimum 80% retention of battery capacity over the warranty period.
6) 80% of 500 miles, is still only 400 miles. I'm out.
7) 80% of 550 miles, is 440 miles. I'd think about it.
8) 80% of 600 miles, is 480 miles. I'm in!

Nobody said selling to trucks owners was easy. If we end up somewhere between where I said I'm out vs where I said I'm in. I'll have to think about it. I'm preparing myself for the letdown, but I'm hopeful Tesla overdelivers.
Why don't you get out now and avoid any potential rush
 
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