Battery Replacement

Crissa

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...and I would hate to have to uber into the city during an outage because my family will be cold if I take the truck.
That seems like a dumb worry. What does that really have to do with the truck being able to augment a home? The same hardware that lets you plug in a truck lets you plug in batteries or a generator.

My home doesn't need to run power if I'm not there... The ice box will remain cold for days. Certainly not extra power. The truck can bring home power, the home batteries cannot. Not to mention supplying worksite, campsites, and being augmented by trailers.

And V2H is becoming required in some markets, like Japan.

-Crissa





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CyberMoose

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That seems like a dumb worry. What does that really have to do with the truck being able to augment a home? The same hardware that lets you plug in a truck lets you plug in batteries or a generator.

My home doesn't need to run power if I'm not there... The ice box will remain cold for days. Certainly not extra power. The truck can bring home power, the home batteries cannot. Not to mention supplying worksite, campsites, and being augmented by trailers.

And V2H is becoming required in some markets, like Japan.

-Crissa
You said it was a dumb worry and then you failed to mention the actual situation that I just said I would be worried about. I am someone who travels for work quite a lot, my wife is used to me being gone a couple days at a time or if it's a really big project, i can be gone for week. Sometimes I drive, sometimes I fly and if i'm flying my truck is parked at work next to the airport.

Now I have solar and powerwalls already but obviously i'm going to pretend I don't for this hypothetical.

If i'm on a work trip for lets say 3 days and two nights, the weather is around -20 to -30 which is pretty common for a Canadian winter, and there is a power outage at my home, how does the Cybertruck help my family.

I have a wife, multiple dogs, and lets say kids since that'll be in the near future too. The heating in my home is electrical/geothermal, so without power, there is no heat. My family won't have any access to heat unless the Cybertruck is there and plugged in. My wife and I always goes to visit her family in the Philippines once every winter, if the power goes out then, my house gets cold and the pipes could burst, even if they don't burst I have to be cautious of leaks from the freeze.

Now lets look at the same situations with a Powerwall and no solar. If I am away on a work trip and the power goes out, the fully charged powerwall can keep the heat on and keep the fridge and freezer running until I get back, my wife would be fine to avoid using much electricity as long as she is warm and has food.
If her and I visit her family, the powerwall would last even longer since the only things using electricity would be heat pumps for my geothermal system and the fridge/freezer.
If we only have one vehicle and I need to go to work, my wife won't have to change any habits at home because the battery won't drain in 8 hours.
After any of these situations, I can go home and plug in the powerwall to the truck and it shouldn't take long at all for the Cybertruck to charge the powerwall since it's a much smaller battery.

I'm assuming you don't live in a place that gets winter, but Canadians do and so do a very large amount of Americans.
The powerwall system with the abilities for the Cybertruck to charge the Powerwall would be a more versatile system than just allowing the Cybertruck to charge the home.

As for running a work site from a Cybertruck, the outlets can do as it is and I would not want my worksite for a business to depend on my ability to go to work every single day, never get sick, and I guess if I get into a car accident, everyone gets a week off work. Also I know some people take electronics while they go camping but I don't think many people would take enough electrical equipment that can't be supplied by the outlets.

Sure if you are someone who lives alone, doesn't travel, doesn't live in a place that gets cold climate, and will always be home before the food in the fridge and freezer start to go bad. The Vehicle to home would be all you need to charge your home. However that's only part of the population and the idea I proposed with the powerwall would work for a lot more people as well as all of the people I just described
 

ajdelange

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I can definitely see the appeal for wanting vehicle to home support in the Cybertruck. The only thing that I can see as an arguement against that is it's not really a problem that vehicles should be solving.
It cycles your battery more often than would be the case without thus causing more rapid loss of capacity which, while that is not so much of a problem in a Powerwall is in a vehicle. More important to my way of thinking is that in a protracted emergency situation you are bleeding off your means of escape to keep your beer cold.

Ford will offer vehicle to home but if i remember correctly, it's only if you have their top wall charger which is 80 amps and has 150kW charging.
You're being a little optimistic there. Eighty A at 240 V is 19.2 kW of which perhaps 90% or 17.3 kW would be delivered to the battery. This is 67% more than the Level 2 chargers support.



While that is great, I don't think that's at all necessary for a home charger. A fast charger might be good for some very specific people who are in the middle of no where, drive a ton, and don't have access to any fast charger.
There might be a use case but as you say in general it is a who needs it question. So it took me 5 hrs to get my battery back up to 75% coming off a road trip (40A from a plug in wall charger). Who cares?

On another note, does anyone know how that will affect the battery? i personally don't know but i've always heard you shouldn't only use superchargers for a Tesla because it can degrade the battery.
The faster and fuller you charge a battery the faster you degrade it. The question is how much. Presumably rather than charge at home at 40 A (.096C) over 5 hrs I should charge at 20 A (0.048 C) over 10. Were I to do so I would stress the battery less but would this effect practical battery life enough to matter? Charging frequently at a SC (1C) is an order of magnitude faster and evidently does have a noticeable detrimental effect as Tesla advises against it.



I would be very happy if I had a powerwall that could power my home for even just 1-2 days in an emergency and it would be awesome if Tesla could make it so my Cybertruck could help recharge that powerwall if I don't have solar and the grid is down.
Work some numbers. The average American household consumes 30 kWh per day. The average household does not buy CT's and so I am guessing that your consumption, and that of almost everyone else here, is over 30 kW. A single Powerwall holds 13.5 kWh and so would supply the average US house for 10.8 hrs.


...and it would be awesome if Tesla could make it so my Cybertruck could help recharge that powerwall if I don't have solar and the grid is down.
You might be able to kluge that through the bed 240V receptacle.


If the grid is down I can plug my Cybertruck into the powerwall to keep it topped up, I can go to a supercharger, recharge, and bring it back,
Tesla particularly does not want you to be able to do that as they operate the SC network at a loss (or at least Elon claims they make no profit from it). They will doubtless have a warranty violation clause in the event that the CT is used as a backup source (they have that in the warranties for all their current vehicles) for a house. They may modify this somewhat to allow you to plug in some appliances in the case of a blackout - I don't see how they could prohibit that. And, of course, you could go to an SC, charge up and come back home to plug in your fridge etc. in that case. It will be interesting to see how they handle this.
 

ajdelange

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The heating in my home is electrical/geothermal, so without power, there is no heat.
That changes the picture appreciably. While geothermal may be more efficient that straight electric it still takes quite a bit of juice to run the compressor(s). I live in the Mid Atlantic region in the winter where weather is a lot milder than it is in Quebec. Even so in January my electric consumption averaged 131 kWh per day and most of that went to the geothermal heat pump (8 ton). While a pair of Powerwalls could run the heatpump (if the 2nd compressor were shed) It would take 10 to cover my average consumption for 1 day. Note that the total battery capacity of the AWD CT is less than 131 kWh.

After any of these situations, I can go home and plug in the powerwall to the truck and it shouldn't take long at all for the Cybertruck to charge the powerwall since it's a much smaller battery.
Yes, that's the problem with it. One, assuming the output goes up in the new ones as Elon has promised, to 9 kW would only run one compressor (4 tons) in my heat pump for 1 hr 20 min. I generally run a duty cycle of 0.4 so that goes up to 3 hr 20 min.

The current Powerwalls only charge at a 5 kW rate. Thus it would take 2 hr 42 min to charge one at the max. The receptacle in the CT is evidently to be 7 kW so it would handle that.

Thus solar, CT, Powerwall system doesn't seem a very practical backup for a Canadian winter. Most of my Canadian neighbors back up with a huge pile of firewood. The green guy down the road has a pellet stove. I have a generator.
 

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You're being a little optimistic there. Eighty A at 240 V is 19.2 kW of which perhaps 90% or 17.3 kW would be delivered to the battery. This is 67% more than the Level 2 chargers support.
That was my mistake, I misread both the articles I was reading.

Work some numbers. The average American household consumes 30 kWh per day. The average household does not buy CT's and so I am guessing that your consumption, and that of almost everyone else here, is over 30 kW. A single Powerwall holds 13.5 kWh and so would supply the average US house for 10.8 hrs.
I'm not trying to use myself as an example for these situations other than vague situations that someone like me might be in. I have a full solar setup and 6 powerwalls. I had my house built with sustainability in mind with almost every aspect that I could think of. Also I don't really think that the average person wouldn't buy a Cybertruck. I know a lot of people wih average lifestyles, average homes, and average pay. They make up most of my oldest friends and literally every single one of them owns a truck that most of them are still paying off but the cost is right around the same cost as the single motor CT.

Tesla particularly does not want you to be able to do that as they operate the SC network at a loss (or at least Elon claims they make no profit from it). They will doubtless have a warranty violation clause in the event that the CT is used as a backup source (they have that in the warranties for all their current vehicles) for a house. They may modify this somewhat to allow you to plug in some appliances in the case of a blackout - I don't see how they could prohibit that. And, of course, you could go to an SC, charge up and come back home to plug in your fridge etc. in that case. It will be interesting to see how they handle this.
I'm really only talking about complete power outages that are going to last more than just a day. Situations like what happened in Texas recently where people went without power for days and some for a couple weeks, those who still had power were billed at rates beyond what they thought was legal. Also what happened east of toronto (I want to say brighton area) sometime around 5 or so years ago where a large area went without power for over a week.

I don't think Tesla is going to try to deter anyone from using their vehicle to charge in actual emergencies. The best example I can think of is still needing heat in the winter. If a Tesla could power a home in absolutely any way when the problems in Texas were happening, I think Tesla would be fine with people using superchargers to keep powering their home because it's to keep warm and protect your home from damage.

Honestly I wouldn't really care about backup power in my home at all if I lived in a tropical area. If the power goes out I would probably just have a big barbecue and cook up whatever I have in the freezer on the grill and invite my friends over. Keeping family warm and protecting my home from water damage would be the most important thing.

I live in the Mid Atlantic region in the winter where weather is a lot milder than it is in Quebec. Even so in January my electric consumption averaged 131 kWh per day and most of that went to the geothermal heat pump (8 ton). While a pair of Powerwalls could run the heatpump (if the 2nd compressor were shed) It would take 10 to cover my average consumption for 1 day. Note that the total battery capacity of the AWD CT is less than 131 kWh.

Yes, that's the problem with it. One, assuming the output goes up in the new ones as Elon has promised, to 9 kW would only run one compressor (4 tons) in my heat pump for 1 hr 20 min. I generally run a duty cycle of 0.4 so that goes up to 3 hr 20 min.

The current Powerwalls only charge at a 5 kW rate. Thus it would take 2 hr 42 min to charge one at the max. The receptacle in the CT is evidently to be 7 kW so it would handle that.
I love my geothermal system because with my setup, it helps my house be more self sustainable. I went a little overboard with solar panels when my house was being built, so I went with every electric option I could.

Most of the people I know have gas furnaces, over half of Canadians use gas furnaces. I don't know the full breakdown but when I was in high school I did door to door sales to replace furnaces, hot water tanks, and have people switch from oil to natural gas. Gas furnaces were the majority that I seen everywhere I went.
So if we go with the average of 30kWh per day, leaving out other people like you and me that have larger consumptions, a powerwall will last almost half a day at that rate. However in an emergency blackout, if people are smart they are going to be conserving energy for things like the heat, keeping food fresh or frozen. I would hope no one decides to do laundry or cook something in the oven when they have limited power. If you really really conserved power and just had the essentials using power, you could probably make it a couple days on a single powerwall.

I'm definitely not saying that a powerwall will be a perfect solution for everyone. If someone has everything electric, A Cybertruck or single Powerwall+Cybertruck isn't really going to help much in the winter without constantly driving back and forth from a supercharger during the day. At the same time, obviously a Ford isn't really going to help either.

But if we look just between the Cybertruck and the possibility of a powerwall that could be charged by the Cybertruck, I still think that the Powerwall would be a lot more usefull.

I still stand by my original statement.

I think that turning your vehicle into a possible battery pack for your home isn't something that Tesla should really focus on when it already has an actual battery pack for your home.
Vehicles aren't really the best situation in an emergency as we've definitely pointed out. Unless you have unlimited access to energy and can keep your vehicle at home plugged in, it won't do much good. Even a couple powerwalls won't go very far unless you have a gas heater/water heater.

If people are really worried about this, Solar is definitely the best option for everyone. I've gotten through one blackout in my area because of my solar set up and I didn't even realize it happened until after the fact.
 

ajdelange

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The problem with solar in the current context of this thread is that the sun doesn't shine much in the winter. Last summer my solar covered 75 - 80% of my electric load. Last February it covered 16%. I've added more panels so now it covers 125% of my consumption in the summer but scaling that back to February only gives me 28%. Maybe last Feb was particularly cloudy.
 
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Crissa

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...One, assuming the output goes up in the new ones as Elon has promised, to 9 kW would only run one compressor (4 tons) in my heat pump for 1 hr 20 min. I generally run a duty cycle of 0.4 so that goes up to 3 hr 20 min.
Don't mix up kWh with kW output.


Thus solar, CT, Powerwall system doesn't seem a very practical backup...
...Sure, if by 'backup' you mean 'operate a household without any other input and without shutting anything down'.

That's not how backups work in most of the world. And that it doesn't cover 100% of your use seems like a terrible reason for others not to have the feature.

-Crissa
 

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The problem with solar in the current context of this thread is that the sun doesn't shine much in the winter. Last summer my solar covered 75 - 80% of my electric load. Last February it covered 16%. I've added more panels so now it covers 125% of my consumption but scaling that back to February only gives me 28%. Maybe last Feb was particularly cloudy.
This is true but because of net metering, my bills when I do need grid power, which is basically just rare occasions in the winter for myself, I am only paying some tax on.
Now this won't be the case for everyone, My solar setup cost me a lot of money because I like being self reliant, for a lot of people solar will just reduce bills and in the winter they will still have reduced bills but maybe not as much depending on the weather, just like your example.
It also depends on where you live. For me, any amount of power I give to the grid I get back as a credit that can carry over for 12 months. This will be a lot more for me when I have kids in the future.
Right now I enjoy having my house at a pretty cool temperature in the winter, my wife and I usually use the fireplace a lot anyway just because we like to. We also both work a lot and I don't have an EV to charge right now. But once we get the Cybertruck and likely the Model X Plaid and hopefully I can convince my wife to trade in the car i'm giving her when I get my Cybertruck with a Model S or a Model 3. After that and we have kids, I expect that my solar set up will be moreso just covering our electrical needs and even I might have to pay for a little in the winter
 

anionic1

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Remember that in the CT the battery pack is going to be one big block of epoxy and battery which is a structural member. I don't think it's going to be a simple matter to replace it.
I agree. I keep seeing people talk about replacing individual modules in the battery pack and I am scratching my head thinking, um.... those suckers are supposed to now be glued in with structural adhesives to transfer loads between the upper and lower casing, right? I thought maybe people know more than me and there is actually a battery within a sleeve, so the module could be easily removed, but I think that is not the case. I really wish I knew because I definitely am one of those people that gets 20 years out of a vehicle having done most of the maintenance myself. I can definitely see myself replacing the battery pack myself if its feasible to do it without major or specialized machinery. If we were betting, my money would be on having to replace the entire pack, which in 20 years may not be a big deal at all with the huge shift we are seeing to EVs. Just think of how much has changes since 2001. We will probably have flying cars by 2041 :sneaky:!
 

anionic1

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This thread is making me feel a little better about driving an 18 year old ICE truck with original gas tank. If it ever goes bad, I doubt I will have to spend $16K+ to replace it.

To those that are loading their keyboards with angry words getting ready to shoot, all I am saying is that if Toyota came out with an affordable million mile range FREV (Fusion Reactor Electric Vehicle) with a tank I could fill up with sea water I may pick that over a battery pack.
You will probably have to replace those 100 million K degree insulation panel at some point though. I think the BRICE (Bacteria Reactor Internal Combustion Engine) will make its debute first. Just add some carbohydrates and off you go powered by bacteria farts!
 

anionic1

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So lets say we get to 200k to 250k miles after 10-15 years and our CT has been freakin' awesome. But now we are noticing that the 60% or 70% battery capacity is starting to get frustrating. We can't quite make it to the in-laws in one shot or that fishing hole and its become a pain. The truck itself is showing a little wear, but overall the motors are still doing great and the truck looks great because that exoskeleton is holding up really well. Lets say its $10k to replace the pack at that point. Would you do it to reinvigorate the CT and get that precious 30% in capacity again? I think most of us here probably would. If $10k or even $15k could get me another 250k in life I would definitely pull the trigger.

By 250k miles on my ICE car, the paint is pealing, the suspension is shot and many of the 1000s of moving parts in the engine compartment and drivetrain are likely on their last leg (or have been replaced $ already). ICE cars have come a really long way in the last 20 years in my opinion and their longevity has come a really long way. It seemed like around 2000 you could expect to get 100k out of the car before major mechanical $ was incurred and now it seems like its closer to 200k. But around that 200k point its a big risk to shovel money into an ICE vehicle because there are a lot of major components that will likely start going bad and the vehicle is probably worth $1500 at that point anyway.

At least with the CT I would feel confident that with a new battery pack I will get the additional mileage without a lot of other unexpected cost simply due to the fact that there aren't nearly as many parts that can fail. With my ford truck right now its about 150k miles, needs the lifters replaced (I replaced the heads around 100k miles) has an oil leak somewhere, had the air conditioner replaced twice, replaced the clutch and related slave/master cylinder. It just feels never ending to keep the truck running optimally. I believe with an EV it will be a very different experience and the number of parts to get it back to optimal are a fraction of an ICE and they will last longer. They may be slightly more costly, but I feel like even with an ICE the quotes you get to replace simple stuff are crazy now days because how hard they are to get to or because you have to buy the whole assembly. I am creeping up on 40 and I don't know how many more clutch replacements I have in me and it has been fun while it lasted but I am ready for a truck that just works so I can enjoy life more. I believe the CT will be that truck, regardless of the battery only being at 70% in 10 years and costing an arm and leg to replace if I decide its worth it.
 

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...You can buy the truck and the fuel and the maintenance for the same price as fifteen years of a Cybertruck?

Say your truck is 20 years old. Well, in 2001 $1 of gas would get you about a half gallon. So your 17mpg was 9mp$. Today, $1 gets you 1/3 of a gallon... so your 17mpg is now 5.6mp$. That's a heck of a reduction in range.

-Crissa
Your missing my point. It's not about mp$. If I can't drive 500 miles on a tank...or a charge, it doesn't matter what the mp$ is. I have no use for an EV truck that can only go 350 miles per charge...if it's charged to 100% and I drive it to 0%...which I'm told, we are not supposed to do. I really have no use for a truck that I can only drive for 280 miles (80% of that warrantied 350).
 

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The last thing I saw Elon was saying the batteries would be recyclable. I thought it would be because they would replace the pack. MAYBE the whole pack would bolt in? One reason I want this is because of the long life of the truck. The battery pack is a weak link. IF it was replaceable. the ownership of these would be much more valuable. in my opinion.
 

ajdelange

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Your missing my point. It's not about mp$. If I can't drive 500 miles on a tank...or a charge, it doesn't matter what the mp$ is. I have no use for an EV truck that can only go 350 miles per charge...if it's charged to 100% and I drive it to 0%...which I'm told, we are not supposed to do. I really have no use for a truck that I can only drive for 280 miles (80% of that warrantied 350).
Then I'm afraid the CT isn't for you (nor is any other electric that I am aware of). As you note, the working range of the TriMotor is 0.8*500 = 400 and you won't get that at highway speed. In fact I think you are probably completely out of luck here because I don't think any OEM is going to push for a 600 mile electric truck - certainly not in these days of battery shortage. Eventually the technology may advance to that point but I think it will be a while
 

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