Luke42

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Not sure what a MOAT is...but pretty sure I'm not one! BK
It's a business metaphor. Like the moat around a castle, a business-moat keeps your competitors out of your market. This is the kind of anti-competitive thinking that greatly reduced Microsoft's relevance under Balmer, because it excludes some customers and fleeces others -- and the customers know it.

Why keep the competitors out when you can charge them $0.50/kWh to use the millions of dollars worth of equipment you invested in?! There's money to be made here!!

The Supercharger Network started as a loss-leader to reinforce the value of Tesla vehicles. Now it's going to become a revenue stream -- and a viable business on its own merit. That's good for Tesla's future as a business.
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ajdelange

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The Supercharger Network started as a loss-leader to reinforce the value of Tesla vehicles. Now it's going to become a revenue stream -- and a viable business on its own merit.
That wording says you consider this a done deal. Are you really that sure that it is going to happen?
 

ajdelange

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I just remembered that in Quebec a Tesla owner can DC "fast" charge his car for less than he can at a Supercharger (unless he gets it free from Tesla) by using a Circuit Electrique station which charges 21¢/kWh. Presumably CE gets the electricity free as they are owned by the power company. Does this give us some insight as to how much it costs to run a station net of the electricity costs?
 

Luke42

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That wording says you consider this a done deal. Are you really that sure that it is going to happen?
I was using my business-voice, rather than my engineer-voice. (I'm CS+MBA working in embedded systems and consumer electronics.) I don't have any insider knowledge, but the business case seems obvious.

Why wouldn't Tesla try to use this big expensive thing they built to make money? They're a business, not a charity, and that's what businesses do.

I bet it will be annoying to those who've become accustomed to having exclusive access to the Supercharger network. However, it also will provide funds for expanding the Supercharger network, so I bet it'll work out in the end. They do need to serve the customer, after all.
 

ajdelange

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Tesla also just upped the charge rate across the country to $0.52c/kWh making it more expensive than fuel now in a same size car. That plus some EV km tax in Victoria and we're all set to go! Not.
My Lexus is about the same size as my X. It gets 18 mpg for which you would pay $US 4.160 for $USD 0.231/mi. The X uses 0.282 kWh/mi and your new rate appears to be $US 0.3848/kWh. Thus implies $US 0.1085/mi so for me the X would still be cheaper. Now if the Lexus got 40 mpg things would be different.
 

ajdelange

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I don't have any insider knowledge, but the business case seems obvious.

Why wouldn't Tesla try to use this big expensive thing they built to make money? They're a business, not a charity, and that's what businesses do.
Roger that. But that opportunity has always been there and they have always said that they would allow access to any OEM who would share in the burden of operating and growing the Network. Why didn't Rawlinson or Scaringe take them up on this? Why do we think they will now? My question of several posts back was "What's different this time?" That's still the question.

My hope would be that the answer is that the other OEMs have come to more clearly see the folly in going it alone or relying on what the competotors's networks offer.

I bet it will be annoying to those who've become accustomed to having exclusive access to the Supercharger network. However, it also will provide funds for expanding the Supercharger network, so I bet it'll work out in the end. They do need to serve the customer, after all.
I'm not trying to convince you that this won't happen. In fact I'm hoping that you will be able to convince me that it will.
 
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Crissa

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But also note there are barely any places outside the metro grid area that can provide enough power for even just one SC. So we need new generation just to charge EV's on their way through.
Seems like you're prime for some solar+powerwall charging points.

-Crissa
 

JBee

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I was using my business-voice, rather than my engineer-voice. (I'm CS+MBA working in embedded systems and consumer electronics.) I don't have any insider knowledge, but the business case seems obvious.

Why wouldn't Tesla try to use this big expensive thing they built to make money? They're a business, not a charity, and that's what businesses do.

I bet it will be annoying to those who've become accustomed to having exclusive access to the Supercharger network. However, it also will provide funds for expanding the Supercharger network, so I bet it'll work out in the end. They do need to serve the customer, after all.
It would seem a bit crazy to imagine a fossil fuel gas station only supplying gas and diesel to one brand of car.

I think it makes sense that Tesla open it up like this. But I think their timing was planned and not random. The timing being that they are a dominant enough network to force other EV manufacturers to join instead of creating their own network. Like this they have less of a choice, because they can benefit from the extensive Tesla charger base with little to no lead time. And Tesla can charge them for it.

Nothing worse than a underutilised asset.
 

JBee

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Seems like you're prime for some solar+powerwall charging points.

-Crissa
Or just batterless solar and a small CT fleet as a buffer in a microgrid works too.
 

JBee

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My Lexus is about the same size as my X. It gets 18 mpg for which you would pay $US 4.160 for $USD 0.231/mi. The X uses 0.282 kWh/mi and your new rate appears to be $US 0.3848/kWh. Thus implies $US 0.1085/mi so for me the X would still be cheaper. Now if the Lexus got 40 mpg things would be different.
X is out of most aussies price range here at around $250k. I'm considering a MY as a stop gap until CT gets here in maybe 2023-24. But you can't order them here yet. M3 is just to small for us and would only fit two people, (we're tall) no dogs or payload etc.

For me the comparison is either an Outlander PHEV (6.7l) or Diesel (6l) vs MY, and a M3 vs our two Priuses (4.5l), or the CT vs my 15cubic meter 1300kg payload Crafter van that does 12l but at high average highway speeds. (80mph)

Obviously the difference would be I'd charge from home for local trips and at least enough for one way on the long one with a CT TM. So only really a SC charge for the way back, excluding holidays etc. For the MY/M3 I'd need to charge once more on the way there and twice to get back.

Its to expensive for what it is though. Our wholesale power, dependant on state, is around $0.04c kWh for coal and about 0.07c for wind and large scale solar. But our peaks will go to $0.80 in WA maybe 4-5 days a year.

And that is why it will be good for Tesla to open up their SC network, because if we had more chargers and more car choices we might even get some chargers out yonder.
 

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Without the batteries, what's the solar doing?

-Crissa
Solar just uses some CTs as the battery that are connected on the grid with V2G/V2H.
 

Majorklein

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Thoughts?
I really want to reply to all the snobs here who think only about themselves. Who cares if you have to wait for someone else to charge their vehicles? Weather it be Ford lightning or a atlus XP it makes no difference if you are in such a rush maybe charge at home more often. People like you are the people not needed in society you are too self centered.
 

JBee

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And the Cybertrucks wander off when you need to charge?

-Crissa
I discussed this in detail with ajdelange in the off-grid charging thread recently which you also liked.

You only need about 10% of 250 CTs connected at one time to run a SC. No mods, just add a V2G telemetry IP port over vehicle data link for control and a network gateway switch at the house or business. Works out that this covers average charge miles per vehicle, and how many times a SC is used per CT instead of home. You can do higher % if you like, and can incentivise more percent of CT drivers to stay connected at home or work by offering free charging or credits as payment for cycling their CT battery just 10-20%.
 
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