Outdoorzman

New member
First Name
John
Joined
Oct 4, 2020
Messages
2
Reaction score
5
Location
Scottsdale
Vehicles
2014 Ram 1500 / 2006 350Z
Occupation
Business Owner
Country flag
Most of my charging will be done at home. I’m anticipating some anxiety over charging on the road. But I’m sure it will be fine. Now I’m worried about long lines charging my CT with versas and fords in the way. Elon, you asked for thoughts… this opening up of charging stations makes me feel less special for owning a Tesla. I’m no snowflake, but I (and sure others) are saving up to buy this truck waiting for something super cool and special. I have “faith” you will deliver. Letting anyone with an EV use the supercharger stations is like opening up the HOV lane to everyone just because there’s traffic. If this is about money, in the short term, it probably makes sense. Long term I think Tesla will lose some of their prestige.
Advertisement

 

DarinCT

Well-known member
First Name
Darin
Joined
Dec 16, 2020
Messages
291
Reaction score
483
Location
California
Vehicles
M3, CT triM
Country flag
It is a tremendous advantage in that to sell cars you have to have it and Tesla is the only company that has it. For this reason it does not matter if it looses money. That money is a good investment in the future success of the company.
Yea, you missed my point. Yes, SC network is advantage that only Tesla has. Yes, it's fine if it looses money. Yes, that money is a good investment. I never said anything to contrary. What I said was that it was not something a lot of defenses a.k.a. moat should be put into. Gas is a commodity, put up a gas station. Electricity is a commodity, put up an EVSE or SC or w/e. Tesla's "defense" is to put them up better and faster than the competition, that's offense through execution, not defense through IP, legal action, or monopolistic behavior. Tesla is specifically not doing the kinds of moat things in any of its business (excepting of course straight up theft of IP).

Now we're in the semantic weeds about whether rapid deployment is defense / offense/ moat / yesterday's breakfast / who cares. This is the exact reason these business terms detract from the actuality...that I think we both agree on. They do it better than any other and it helps them tremendously and it doesn't really matter if it's a loss leader.
 

ricinro

Well-known member
First Name
Rich
Joined
Jun 8, 2020
Messages
173
Reaction score
167
Location
Mesa Az
Vehicles
2021 Tesla MY
Occupation
mechanical engineer
Country flag
This was going to be a shorter post but the thoughts grew out of control just like non-Tesla companies would do if they were allowed to use Tesla superchargers ... so a little long-winded but maybe needs to be said. So I apologize in advance.

Every EV manufacturer has had the freedom of choice whether or not to deploy their own supercharging infrastructure. Tesla has not prevented any of them from doing that.

Just because Tesla has become very efficient at building superchargers doesn't mean that other EV companies should have any right to start leeching off of Tesla's work and investment just because they're either too incompetent, lazy, or too greedy to make their own. They have and always have had just as much freedom as Tesla to develop and deploy their own superchargers. No one is stopping them.

This is about money, greed, and companies not wanting to put in the hard work like Tesla has done and is still doing. More than likely, any capitulation of this is being forced by European politics and approvals for GF4, and hopefully would not apply as much in the U.S. because we still have the more elegant slim Tesla connector instead of the CCS. I have always been suspicious though, every since it was announced that superchargers in Europe would be installed with the CCS connector instead of the Tesla proprietary one. Unfortunately, those who have less faith in their own abilities often want to take from resources and hard work done by others, which of course is of a certain mindset we unfortunately all are familiar with and have to be wary of.

If Tesla owners pay for their cars, they of course also are the ones paying for the Tesla supercharger network - so therefore its obvious they should not be forced to have their hard earned money subverted to prop up other companies and competitors ineptitude - where they suddenly have become sheep pawns waiting in extra longer lines for superchargers they actually paid to have built, because others want free access to something they did not do any work to build or develop.

I sincerely do hope that Tesla somehow comes up with a way to pass the costs more on to those others just like Tesla owners pay at some non-Tesla charging locations. Otherwise, diluting all this infrastructure access to those who didn't pay for it, is totally unfair and wrong to Tesla owners. I hope the extra costs will actually be enough to deter them from using chargers they did not earn, just as Tesla owners are deterred from using non-Tesla charge points except only when absolutely necessary.

Yes, I do agree that it would be great to have universal access where all EVs could charge at any location - and in an ideal world that would be better for everyone. But in reality, right now Tesla is doing the overwhelming lion's share of supercharger deployment compared to others, and it seems others simply don't want to 'pull their weight' and just use Tesla's chargers instead.

This is not a new issue. Many companies have their own proprietary standards because they want to protect their intellectual property and hard work of development. We never started forcing DeWalt, Skill, or Makita, or others to allow other drill manufactures to use their battery form factors and connectors did we? Look at how many different rechargeable battery formats we have for drills, power tools, lawn mowers, string trimmers, etc.? We have not forced Apple to open their IOS Operating System for operability on more universal hardware instead of their own proprietary systems have we? Why not?

Yes, I know gas stations are universal for all ICE cars, but there is a difference, in that each car manufacturer didn't build the gas stations because the oil companies did that.

IMO Tesla should not be strong-armed or forced to share their charging infrastructure any more than companies mentioned above should be forced into a non-proprietary standards, spilling out their development, resources and hard work.

Again, each company is freely able to deploy their own superchargers. I think at this point if Tesla opens up their superchargers to others, it could pacify those other companies and keep them from taking the responsible, and economically smarter approach to developing their own, which would be better for the long term. So, it will pacify others from doing the work, resulting in less overall worldwide deployment of superchargers by others, while forcing Tesla owners to share to non-payers while waiting in longer lines to charge.

Tesla has been more than generous enough in other ways, but if Tesla pays for others' superchargers, it is actually Us, the Tesla owner, who is really paying for it all.
Nice comment.

I have often noticed, historically, that new technology used proprietary standards not necessarily for technical reasons but for anti-competitive reasons. Typically, at some point, the gov't and/or an Industry group is formed to settle on standards in the public interest.

A smart move regarding gov't funding of EV charging stations would be to insist on some common plug standard or providing adapters. Since the Tesla supercharger network has a superior payment system it may make more sense to include a payment or POS device in the adapter that Tesla would provide at each station. Also, Tesla may only reserve some stalls to other vehicles leaving Tesla drivers with some priority.
Likewise, other charger companies would provide a Tesla adapter.
There is a lot of benefit for all EV owners until a common charging standard is adopted.
But the "adapter" surcharge that would be expected would still steer folks to their native chargers.
 

ajdelange

Well-known member
First Name
A. J.
Joined
Dec 8, 2019
Messages
2,946
Reaction score
3,142
Location
Virginia/Quebec
Vehicles
Tesla X LR+, Lexus SUV, Toyota SR5, Toyota Landcruiser
Occupation
EE (Retired)
Country flag
They buy power at $0.08/ kWh. They sell it at $0.28/ kWh. The margin/ profit on that sale is $0.20 per kWh. How about when Tesla has solar panels installed at Superchargers and pays $0.00/ kWh but sells power for $0.28/ kWh. Again, that is profit.
I was asking where you got the 8¢ number from. Let's run with it. Let us assume each terminal services 20 cars per day and loads 50kW into each. That's 365,000 kWh/yr for which @ 8¢ costs the operator $29,200. Lets further assume that a V3 terminal costs $250,000 to build, permit, and install. Let's assume that it lasts 5 years. The yearly amortization would then be $50,000 which added to the 29,200 gives $79,000 for the year. Per kWh that's 21.6¢. Tesla charges 28¢. That leaves (28 - 21.6)*365000 = $23,360 to cover rent, maintenace, the billing network, credit card company fees, communications cost, taxes, demand charges, transmission charges, the salaries of the people who answer the phone when you call to report a problem....

Are we at least agreed on this basic principal?
The principle is obvious. It's just that a cost of 8¢ to buy and dispense a kWh of juice is risible.

This is basic accounting.
Yes it is. I think you'd benefit from a quickie read on it.


If you think Tesla is running the Superchargers with no plans for profits,
I didn't say that. I said that up to this point in time Tesla has operated the SC network at a loss. I also said that perhaps this plan to sell the service to others at a price below EA's 43¢ but above their current 28¢ might allow them to make a profit from the SC.

You don't seem to be able to grasp the concept that operating the SC network at a loss causes overall corporate profitability to increase because it sells more cars.



Tesla has proven they are quite good at making money.
Jordan Johnson disagrees with this.
 

ricinro

Well-known member
First Name
Rich
Joined
Jun 8, 2020
Messages
173
Reaction score
167
Location
Mesa Az
Vehicles
2021 Tesla MY
Occupation
mechanical engineer
Country flag
I see 2 major changes coming in EV charging in the next few years:

- Businesses like restaurants, interstate gas stations, and other convenient travel stop locations will be installing chargers so that travelers can stop for 20-30 minutes to recharge and spend $ at their location. Places like Cracker Barrell, Quick Trip, etc. will start to be more forward looking and try to capture the EV crowd.

- Growth in 3rd party chargers that are not tied to a specific car manufacturer, just like you see with the separation between ICE manufacturers and gas stations. Heck, I will even say that at some point it will probably make sense for Tesla to spin off their supercharger stations to become a different company. I could even see the Tesla supercharger network becoming the next Exxon/Mobile type network, especially if those traditional gas stations do not keep up with the new technology.
Tesla restaurants, automated restrooms/showers, car washers, AC playgrounds for the kids, mini-marts and regional gift shops.

All under a massive solar roof/battery pack that Tesla mass produces.

We do know Tesla has applied for the restaurant TM
 

Ogre

Well-known member
First Name
Dennis
Joined
Jul 3, 2021
Messages
1,674
Reaction score
3,051
Location
Ogregon
Vehicles
Model Y
Country flag
Yes it is. I think you'd benefit from a quickie read on it.
I had 2 semesters in college, I don't need the 20 minute google version you seem to love.

You don't seem to be able to grasp the concept that operating the SC network at a loss causes overall corporate profitability to increase because it sells more cars.
Maybe you missed the point of this thread?

The situation has changed.
 

ajdelange

Well-known member
First Name
A. J.
Joined
Dec 8, 2019
Messages
2,946
Reaction score
3,142
Location
Virginia/Quebec
Vehicles
Tesla X LR+, Lexus SUV, Toyota SR5, Toyota Landcruiser
Occupation
EE (Retired)
Country flag
I had 2 semesters in college, I don't need the 20 minute google version you seem to love.
You seem to need a review in whatever format.


Maybe you missed the point of this thread?
Don't think so but I think you may have done.


The situation has changed.
How has it changed? The rumor that other OEMs will be using the SC network has come round again. Nothing new there.
 

Ogre

Well-known member
First Name
Dennis
Joined
Jul 3, 2021
Messages
1,674
Reaction score
3,051
Location
Ogregon
Vehicles
Model Y
Country flag
How has it changed? The rumor that other OEMs will be using the SC network has come round again. Nothing new there.
Rumor -> Someone says something/ comes up with a theory which may or may not be true.

Actual -> Musk says something and it is later confirmed.
 

TomGriff

Member
First Name
Tom
Joined
Jun 25, 2021
Messages
17
Reaction score
18
Location
Washougal, WA
Vehicles
15 MS 70D, 17 Bolt Premier, CT Reserved, Yamaha T7
Country flag
As a Bolt and Tesla owner it won't make much difference to me (both great cars for different reasons - although the propensity for Bolts to catch on fire and Chevy's inability to get it fixed is starting reduce my love for the Bolt). I've had great luck with Electrify America and they are in the places I need them, so I really don't see any reason I would need to take the Bolt to a Supercharger. I can take both cars to most places that I would go in WA/OR, although there are some very rural areas that are beyond their range. Supercharging is great, but it isn't as much of an advantage as many Tesla owners who have never used the other networks think. EA is where I've needed it and has been reliable for me. Clearly though, supercharging is sooo much easier - plug it in and it works. EA requires 3 or 4 steps and takes a few minutes to start initializing the charge. At any rate, long way of saying, I doubt I will ever take my Chevy to a supercharger even if I could and certainly not if I have to spend several hundred dollars on an adapter.
 

Zybane

Member
Joined
Nov 21, 2019
Messages
22
Reaction score
45
Location
Fort Rucker Alabama
Vehicles
CyberTruck
Occupation
Military Pilot
Country flag
This is an epically bad decision. Tesla will regret this. This decision is ONLY a negative for all current Tesla owners AND future Tesla owners.

SC network is already unable to keep up with the Y/3's coming onto the road. The SC build out has been way slower than planned. So now Tesla owners have to share those limited spots with Nissan Leaf's and whatever else crap out there?

Alienating Tesla owners is not a good move. There is not a single positive to this decision for Tesla owners.

There are two main reasons why Tesla was ahead of everyone else:

1. Tesla SC network making it relatively easy for Tesla owners to charge on trips.
2. Autopilot/FSD.

Now they've removed one of them. Now I am seriously considering changing my Cybertruck purchase to a Rivian R1S. Since now I can charge the Rivian at SC's and the Rivian has room to sleep/camp in unlike the Cybertruck.

Once the SC change happens, Tesla forums will be flooded with people waiting in line for slow charging non Tesla vehicles taking up spots. You wait and see.
 

MEDICALJMP

Well-known member
First Name
Jeff
Joined
Apr 28, 2020
Messages
949
Reaction score
1,726
Location
Omaha, NE
Vehicles
Toyota Avalon, Rav4, Tri-motor Cybertruck
Occupation
Nurse
Country flag
I have said this multiple times on various forums here, until we have a standardized charging connector we will hamper EV adoption.

Opening up Tesla charging to other platforms will have some immediate, short-term issues. In the long-term it will be beneficial for Tesla and all EV drivers.

‘That being said, here is an article restating one of the many reasons I’m going Tesla.



CAR AND DRIVER’S EV 1000—11 EV MODELS TEST THE STATE OF HIGHWAY CHARGING IN A LONG-DISTANCE RACE

Posted on July 21, 2021 by Charles Morris



When did the first EV race take place? Shortly after the second EV was built, says conventional wisdom. Since the dawn of modern EVs, a few groups have staged Cannonball Run-style events, and many more individuals have documented long-distance road trips, often with a goal of demonstrating the prevailing state of charging infrastructure.

The aim of Car and Driver’s EV 1000 was to highlight the state of EV technology and the US’s charging infrastructure with a 1,000-mile round trip through four states. A wide variety of EV models took part: all 11 vehicles that the magazine evaluated in its recent EV of the Year test. Each vehicle had a team of two drivers, and the course ran from Ann Arbor, Michigan through Cincinnati, Ohio; Morgantown, West Virginia; Erie, Pennsylvania; and back to Ann Arbor.

As C&D’s Eric Tingwall writes, this was about an Everyman driving experience, not about competition racing: “No taped-over panel gaps, no stripped interiors to shave weight, no rented U-Hauls to break the wind. The point, we said over and over, was to capture the experience of driving an EV on a long road trip.”

However, that didn’t stop some of the drivers from coming up with quirky ideas that they thought might help eke out a few more miles of range—one wore no pants, so he wouldn’t have to run the AC. Others disabled automatic headlights and sacrificed cruise control. In a rather unusual twist for a race, drivers followed speed limits more often than not.

The teams used various apps to scout out charging locations, including A Better Routeplanner (ABRP) and PlugShare, as well as the native navigation apps in the various EVs. One of the first lessons learned was to take recommendations from any app with a grain of lithium salt—the drivers in the Nissan Leaf, insisting that the app made them do it, made their first pit stop just 23 miles into the race, a mistake that cost them a big chunk of time right out of the gate.

Another lesson familiar to any frequent user of public charging: you can’t count on any particular charging station being available. Several of the teams pulled up to chargers only to find them out of order, and some found that chargers didn’t deliver the advertised power. A couple had truly maddening experiences trying to get a charge and get back on the road.

Tingwall tells us that “the teams in the Tesla Model 3 and Model Y had it comparatively easy.” Tesla’s built-in nav directed them to fast and reliable Superchargers as necessary, and problems were few. “While Superchargers could be finicky in their early days, the current equipment is more dependable than a gas-pump credit-card reader,” writes Tingwall. Coverage is pretty comprehensive—at one point, the team driving the Model S passed four Supercharger stations without having to stop.


Those who had to depend on non-Tesla fast chargers had a more challenging race, and they found that the level of service varied widely among different public charging networks. “Several teams developed a fierce loyalty to the Electrify America network, which is now the closest thing to a competitor to Tesla’s fast-charger network,” writes Tingwall. This agrees with the findings of Charged’s 2020 Best-in-Test survey, which rated Electrify America the best of the five largest non-Tesla US charging networks.

Like Tesla, EA typically equips each charging site with several individual chargers, so drivers have options if units are out of order or occupied.

Two of the teams—those driving the Polestar 2 and the Volvo XC40 Recharge—did have issues with some of the Electrify America chargers. EA uses hardware from four different manufacturers, and charging stations from one of them were incompatible with the Polestar and Volvo at the time of the race (both automakers say the issue has now been fixed).

And the winner is? Most readers probably won’t be surprised to learn that a certain California carmaker swept the podium—the Tesla Model S took first place, with a time of 16 hours and 14 minutes of driving and charging. According to Google Maps, the time spent charging added only 50 minutes to the total travel time. The team driving Model Y placed second, and Model 3 snagged third.

The rest of the vehicles straggled in over the course of several hours. In last place was the poor little Leaf. Nissan’s electric hatchback was one of the first viable modern EVs, but since its 2010 launch, it has been sadly neglected by its maker, and its range and charging speed simply aren’t up to 2021 standards.

Car and Driver’s verdict: “If you want to regularly drive long distances in an EV today, you’ll want a car with access to Tesla’s proprietary charging infrastructure.”

===

Written by: Charles Morris; Source: Car and Driver


https://evannex.com/blogs/news/car-...e-of-highway-charging-in-a-long-distance-race
——————————————————

 

happy intruder

Well-known member
First Name
O. K.
Joined
Mar 5, 2020
Messages
325
Reaction score
224
Location
Irvine
Vehicles
Model 3 Jun 2019..... Model S Jan 2020
Occupation
Retired
Country flag
I like being able to supercharger near my house when I need it for trips.....opening it up to other brands will surely cause some owners some heartburn if they have to wait for a non-testa to charge.....however, if say for example, they have 16 spots, allocating 2 for non-testa cars would not be too bad....they can wait.....Or, Tesla owners should have some type of priority....I just dont know how it can be done or implemented...
 

Zybane

Member
Joined
Nov 21, 2019
Messages
22
Reaction score
45
Location
Fort Rucker Alabama
Vehicles
CyberTruck
Occupation
Military Pilot
Country flag
I have said this multiple times on various forums here, until we have a standardized charging connector we will hamper EV adoption.

Opening up Tesla charging to other platforms will have some immediate, short-term issues. In the long-term it will be beneficial for Tesla and all EV drivers.
As a tesla vehicle owner, why do I care about overall EV vehicle adoption? Especially when it hampers my ownership experience when it comes to Supercharging? And how will opening Tesla SC to non-Tesla vehicle make it "beneficial" for Tesla owners? I've heard zero logic on that question.
 

MEDICALJMP

Well-known member
First Name
Jeff
Joined
Apr 28, 2020
Messages
949
Reaction score
1,726
Location
Omaha, NE
Vehicles
Toyota Avalon, Rav4, Tri-motor Cybertruck
Occupation
Nurse
Country flag
As a tesla vehicle owner, why do I care about overall EV vehicle adoption? Especially when it hampers my ownership experience when it comes to Supercharging? And how will opening Tesla SC to non-Tesla vehicle make it "beneficial" for Tesla owners? I've heard zero logic on that question.
We could argue about cleaning up the air and the planet ad nauseam. How about something more practical?


More adoption means more chargers everywhere. Not just major cities and highways. BFE Alabama. Jerkwater Tennessee. Outinthemiddle Idaho. You worry about range now. No worries about range if every berg has Superchargers. You take a very narrow, nearsighted view.

How about this? More people using EVs then decide that the VW EV sucks. They keep seeing how Tesla owners are charging faster and smiling all the time. So they buy a Tesla after they dump their unsatisfactory brand X. Your Tesla stock goes up and up and up.

I seriously doubt your personal tesla charging experience will be hampered by having others being able to use our system. Most of your charging experience will be at home. The 1% of the time that you are on the road doing a long trip and needing a supercharger will be much better off by having more superchargers available. Also, having a common charging standard will allow you to go virtually anywhere your little heart desires and not have to worry about getting electricity into your batteries when you need it. You’re driving through some little town and decide to stop for lunch. There’s a Kum and go right there and you just stop and plug-in and go get food at the restaurant across the street. Just like you do now. How is that going to hamper your experience? It’s only going to make it better for you. It’ll make it better for all of us.
 

Ogre

Well-known member
First Name
Dennis
Joined
Jul 3, 2021
Messages
1,674
Reaction score
3,051
Location
Ogregon
Vehicles
Model Y
Country flag
As a tesla vehicle owner, why do I care about overall EV vehicle adoption? Especially when it hampers my ownership experience when it comes to Supercharging? And how will opening Tesla SC to non-Tesla vehicle make it "beneficial" for Tesla owners? I've heard zero logic on that question.
This is Northern California, just north of the Bay Area

Screen Shot 2021-07-21 at 7.38.54 PM.png


Just north of one of the biggest enclaves of Tesla owners on the planet, there is a giant area which is very difficult to access if you have a Tesla.

Here's Nevada... lots of this is just nasty looking wasteland, but there are places I occasionally like to go here. The entire Highway 50 corridor is blank.
Screen Shot 2021-07-21 at 7.40.10 PM.png


It probably doesn't make a ton of financial sense to have a charging station in Clear Lake, CA or Ely, NV, but as a Tesla owner, I'd very much like the option to go to these places.

Most likely Tesla is opening up their charger network so they can tap into the Biden infrastructure funding which is designed specifically to add chargers in this kind of place.
 
Advertisement

 
Advertisement
Top