JB Straubel: Transforming the Lithium-ion Battery Supply Chain

[CyberGus]

Where can you buy a 4680?

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[android04]

The dragon in the room that no-one has been taliking about is the reliance on Lithium.
China has most of the Lithium in the world or control of it.
This is bad.
Canada has recently reopened its Lithium mines and sending to the US for refinement.
Its expensive despite recent spot call drops on the market. . Its nasty.
Theonly way to beat lithium prices driving up Ev prices and China controlling that lithum market is to NOT USE LITHIUM.
There are several very hope battery chemistries that are in process . Only 2 are close to being manufacturing capable. Its gonna be a bit on those.
SO, in the meantime the smart thing is to REDUCE dependency on lithium.
There are 3 manufacturing in process systems upcoming. All of tehm are proving to be far more energy dense.Recycling is going to be VERY necessary.
All this to distance the Ev market from dreadful influences and keep prices down.

That was a great article!

A lot of the lithium used for batteries is actually mined in Australia and South America. However, most of the processing to turn that into battery grade material is done in China. So the crude materials get shipped from Australia or South America to China for processing, then to the United States or other countries for battery cell production.

In addition to being able to recycle battery materials, hopefully other countries invest in the processing of raw materials into battery grade materials for making batteries.

 

[cvalue13]

I can't say I see (or pay attention to) anyone saying "lithium is bad, gas is better." I do see serious people say that lithium itself is not cost/risk-free, and those should be acknowledged to perform the calculation of relative utility.

Those are pretty different points/positions.

Thoughtful critiques of lithium I don't take to say "lithium" (energy storage medium) is better than "gasoline" (energy source). Instead that electricity (energy source) is (depending on how generated) can be better than gasoline (e.g., solar) or worse (e.g., coal); and that almost unrelatedly, so lithium (energy storage) is a rather environmentally and financially costly way to merely store energy.

• Electricity + Lithium = BEV propulsion
• Gasoline + Gas Tank = ICE propulsion

We all understand that certain electricity can be more cost-effective (broadly speaking) than gasoline, while other sources of electricity can be far more costly than gasoline. So we aspire to develop and utilize the former over the latter.

With lithium, the thoughtful "debate" on its impacts are similar. As an energy storage medium, are there more or less costly methods to store electricity than lithium?

So...

... not really, in any meaningful way, is this statement sensible.

Then you may say in response, "well, if electricity is sourced in the most cost responsible way, and then lithium is also sourced in the most cost-responsible way, then it's obviously better than gasoline and its gas tank."

But that framing is intended to hide the trick. The fair framing instead is:

"what does it look like to compare the most cost-responsible electricity+lithium against the most cost-responsible gasoline+gas tank."

In this framing, we're seeking to compare almost hypothetical realities not of how things are, but of how they could be if sufficient investment and resources are committed to both models.

Instead what I see just as much of, are people pitting against one-another:

• [the worst type of gasoline as presently developed and consumed]

vs​

• [a future utopia of electricity and storage technologies, together with social changes reducing consumption, all yet to be developed]

Makes it hard for anyone to make any sensible comparisons, out-of-hand.

But makes it pretty easy to see that, to the extent lithium has any material financial, political, or social costs, there needs to be criticism of it, and investigation into how to improve how electricity is stored.

Not to be confused with "gas is good"

 

[CyberGus]

But makes it pretty easy to see that, to the extent lithium has any material financial, political, or social costs, there needs to be criticism of it, and investigation into how to improve how electricity is stored.

There are valid concerns with the sourcing of raw materials for our renewable-energy future. However, much of the public chatter on the subject originates from disingenuous sources that are protecting their own interests (e.g., the fossil fuel industry).

It is important to make a distinction between valid concerns, hyperbole, and misinformation.

 

[cvalue13]

There are valid concerns with the sourcing of raw materials for our renewable-energy future. However, much of the public chatter on the subject originates from disingenuous sources that are protecting their own interests (e.g., the fossil fuel industry).

It is important to make a distinction between valid concerns, hyperbole, and misinformation.

100%

In both directions.

not suggesting both "sides" are equally at fault

instead only that, like it or not, one side has the onus of change by persuasiveness, and persuasiveness is undermined by not observing the distinction between hyperbole, etc.

 

[S.H.Peterson]

One other pointof mention:
As the general use of lithum batteries increases, so the dependence on newly mined lithium will not increase on a 1:1 scale.
Lithium battery recycling is becoming cheaper, simpler and faster on a continual basis.
It is far faster, energy effecient, and environmentally more sound to make batteries out of pre-existing batteries.
As the rate of recycling goes up, battery effeciency goes up, effective battery size goes down, motor effeciency goes up, there will be a greater reduction for the need of newly mined lithium.

Emergent non lithium battery chemisties will also decrease demand for newly mined lithium. Will it negate the need for mining? No, there will always be a need for new lithuim. We just wont be shackled to newly mined lithium.

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