Ramcharger- Best of Both Worlds?

[anionic1]

@scottf200 I thought that was you! I remember when we were both on the Volt forum back in 2010 (I bought two in early 2011 VIN 1703 and 1680). Time flies, the revolution moves slowly, lol.

As an individual purchase option, PHEVs and can be a useful alternative, and the RAM may be a nice alternative for some on here. As a corporate strategy, however, they are idiotic. When they were first introduced back in the Volt forum days 14 years ago, they offered real promise to help transition to the mid-2020s. But the automakers never really got behind them and the mid 2020s have arrived. Today, the logical focus from a corporate strategy perspective is to move swiftly to full electrification and get your own company's costs and tech on the right side of the survival curve.

The technical challenges standing between us and full electrification of all vehicle classes are primarily incremental improvements in charging speed (~200 miles in 10 minutes) and energy density (160 kwh in the space of a single layer cybertruck gets you 400 miles). Both of those are progressing rapidly. The third barrier, battery cost, is back on a descending path after the COVID hiccup. The rest of the electric vehicle is cost advantaged. IMO Tavares is nuts pouring resources into a technical cul de sac.

RAM will be a great personal option for some who want to go electrified but I think it is strategic quicksand for Stellantis and Toyota.

I think if its priced right and they can convince the world that this is more of an EV with a gas generator on board, to the truck world, that will sell. That is clearly what they are trying to do. I agree that most manufacturers are still selling flip phones and tesla is the iphone in the market so they better convert quick because they are now already 5 years behind. But i know a lot of folks that are really not happy with the EV range and have talked about going back. I would have no problem with 95% of my driving to haul around a 3.6L that isnt getting used and only use it when i need it. I have solar so the energy is almost free. Then when we want to throw the trailer on and go for a trip I have no reservation about the mileage.

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[Coolio2000]

Think of how inefficient it will be hauling around an extra 1000lbs of fuel, engine, and generator components. If an engineer suggested this idea to Elon, they would be fired on the spot.

This is a perfect example of why OEM manufacturers are totally screwed. They lose thousands of dollars on every single EV that they sell. This gimmick of a truck is just another nail in the coffin.

 

[scottf200]

@scottf200 I thought that was you! I remember when we were both on the Volt forum back in 2010 (I bought two in early 2011 VIN 1703 and 1680). Time flies, the revolution moves slowly, lol.

As an individual purchase option, PHEVs and can be a useful alternative, and the RAM may be a nice alternative for some on here. As a corporate strategy, however, they are idiotic. When they were first introduced back in the Volt forum days 14 years ago, they offered real promise to help transition to the mid-2020s. But the automakers never really got behind them and the mid 2020s have arrived. Today, the logical focus from a corporate strategy perspective is to move swiftly to full electrification and get your own company's costs and tech on the right side of the survival curve.

The technical challenges standing between us and full electrification of all vehicle classes are primarily incremental improvements in charging speed (~200 miles in 10 minutes) and energy density (160 kwh in the space of a single layer cybertruck gets you 400 miles). Both of those are progressing rapidly. The third barrier, battery cost, is back on a descending path after the COVID hiccup. The rest of the electric vehicle is cost advantaged. IMO Tavares is nuts pouring resources into a technical cul de sac.

RAM will be a great personal option for some who want to go electrified but I think it is strategic quicksand for Stellantis and Toyota.

Hello, yes, that is me. I have a 2011 VIN 1234 which my youngest kid is driving (though the battery is pretty degraded.).

Clearly a lot has changed in the EV world with powertrain efficiencies and the cost of batteries coming down far enough to be full electric.

I think the RamCharger could be a great transition vehicle for those that have reservations and pickup truck uses cases like hauling. The CCS network would be brutal for hauling. NACS may get part way there but 100-150 miles of towing may be very tough for some that went a few hundred miles before.

Holy heck Bob Lutz was behind Via motors trying to do a PHEV and then others had some attempts. Probably too costly with the price of batteries back then. The world is a different place.
[ 2012 – VIA unveils a lineup of EREV versions of trucks, vans and SUVs]

I honestly think Tesla and in the pickup market the Cybertruck 'scared' the other manufacturers into action. Competition in all these forms is good for all of us!!

 

[firsttruck]

I wish the Ramcharger pricing was out so we could compare to the CT tomorrow. At first I looked at the Ramcharger and thought, these Stellantis guys are frauds. They are still just burning gas and calling it an EV which is true if its used wrong, which some idiots will. If you literally never plug in and just let the 3.6L ICE engine always recharge the vehicle you are an idiot and you should just buy an ICE truck. But if you mostly plug in and hopefully can use solar or some clean energy, then you could probably do 95% of your driving with the 150 mi battery range and not really use the engine. But when you are hauling or going on a long trip, that 690 miles of range with the gas generator built in seems like it might really be worth it. Granted, don't fool yourself into thinking its an EV at that point, but really its the best of both worlds if you know how to use it. I would gladly give up the frunk space for that V6.

I have to imagine its going to be stupid expensive, but my experience with RAM trucks is that they are built really well. And if they price it right, that would be a really really awesome truck if used right. With a 92 kWh battery and a 3.6L V6 and the specs it is proposing I have to imagine it will be a $85k to $95k truck though. With that being their first truck out of the gate it might not gain much traction at that price point and i hope I am wrong. So far that truck is the only other EV truck that has really caught my attention just because it does offer a huge range advantage and I don't mind maintaining an ICE engine (to some degree). That engine would probably see only 5% of the use a normal engine would so maintenance should be very minimal.

Link for those unfamiliar with the truck Ramcharger

Consider that Ford is losing $10K-15K on Lightning.

Now to estimate RamCharger PHEV, reduce Lightning battery pack by 30% and
add in all the ICE stuff (engine, fuel tank, fuel system, emissions control, exhaust, catalytic converter, ...)
+ 130KW electrical generator.
Complex system to make.
High maintenance ( Both ICE & EV plus systems and integration)
Complex system for service personnel to diagnose.
Hybrids catch fire more often than even ICE.

If Stellantis is to make a profit on RamCharger PHEV the minimum sell price will have to be $90K+ in probably still a 2025 year of fairly high interest rate financial environment (rates going down but never again 0-1%).

 

[scottf200]

Did the Volt ICE engine connect to the powertrain? or did it just charge the battery like they are proposing on the Ramcharger?

ASIDE: Volt modes of operation. --
They had multiple modes to do whatever was the most efficient for the situations (low/high-speed on battery and low/high speed while the ICE was running). It was about efficiency.

Below via: https://web.archive.org/web/2011010...Electronics_Boost_Chevy_Volt_s_Efficiency.php
>>>
Voltec drive unit now has four basic modes of operation: electric driving (low- and high-speed); and extended range driving (low- and high-speed).

Here's a quick look at the four modes as described in the article [] are additions:

[only battery] Electric Low-Speed [in Charge-Depleting (CD) mode]: The simplest and most well-known of the Volt's four modes, this calls for the vehicle to use the charge from its 435-lb lithium-ion battery pack to power a 111-kW ac traction motor. When the traction motor turns, it transmits power to a sun gear in a planetary gear set, which turns the drive axle. Volt owners are expected to make heavy use of this mode - many will drive the car to work and back, charge it at night, and never use a drop of gasoline in the process.​

​

[only battery] Electric High-Speed [in Charge-Depleting (CD) mode]: The Volt typically hits this mode at about 70 mph. Then, the supervisory controller splits the power between the large traction motor and a smaller 54-kW generator-motor (which is still operated by the battery). The planetary gear set blends the power from the two motors and sends it to the drive axle. Even as it switches to this mode, however, the Volt still isn't employing its internal combustion engine - and therefore still isn't burning any gasoline.​

​

[run ICE] Extended Range Low-Speed [in Charge-Sustaining (CS) mode]: When the battery's charge drops to an unacceptable level, the 1.4-â„“ I-4 engine makes its debut. At low speeds, the engine spins the generator-motor, which replenishes the battery.​

​

[run ICE] Extended Range High-Speed [in Charge-Sustaining (CS) mode]: This is the most complicated and controversial (see sidebar) of the Volt's four modes. With the battery depleted at higher speeds (70+ mph), the controller opts for a power split. It calls for power to be delivered through the big traction motor and through the smaller generator-motor. Unlike the other modes, however, this one calls for the generator-motor to transmit power directly into a ring gear in the vehicle's planetary gear set. GM says it has a good reason for doing this - electric motor efficiency typically plummets at higher speeds. "You're bringing down the speed of the main traction motor and supplementing it with the generator-motor," a GM spokesman says. "As a result, you're improving the efficiency."​

<snip>​

<<<

 

[jerhenderson]

global warming will somehow lessen with hybrids? the point of transitioning is to prevent s rewing Earth for our kids and the other species we share the planet with.

 

[firsttruck]

Did the Volt ICE engine connect to the powertrain? or did it just charge the battery like they are proposing on the Ramcharger?

Looks like Chevy Volt, depending on mode & power demands, ICE can engage a mechanical connect to wheels.

The BMW i3 with REx option might have been only hybrid to completely mechanically isolate the ICE engine from transmission/wheels at all times.

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Chevrolet Volt PHEV
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevrolet_Volt

.....
While in this series mode at higher speeds and loads, (typically above 30 miles per hour (48 km/h) at light to moderate loads) the gasoline engine can engage mechanically to the output from the transmission and assist both electric motors in driving the wheels, in which case the Volt operates as a power-split or series-parallel hybrid.


------------------------------------------


2016 Chevrolet Volt Powertrain: How It Works In Electric, Hybrid Modes
February 24, 2015
By John Voelcker John Voelcker
https://www.greencarreports.com/new...ertrain-how-it-works-in-electric-hybrid-modes

.....
The new 2016 Volt should be viewed as a more conventional plug-in hybrid, with engine torque now being sent to the wheels through a mechanical connection whenever the engine is on. The 2011-2015 Volt has one motor that powers the wheels, and a second that acts as an engine-driven generator to produce electricity when battery capacity is depleted.

.....
The 2016 Volt, on the other hand, has a pair of motors that are roughly the same size, one or both of which can power the car. It still operates exclusively in all-electric mode up to its range of 50 miles or so (except in very cold weather) before the engine switches on. But once the battery is down to its "depleted" level, the engine switches on--and it contributes torque to drive the wheels far more often now than it did in the first Volt, when it would clutch into the drivetrain only in a limited set of high-speed driving circumstances.

.....
High Extended-Range mode
Finally, at the highest speeds (from as low as 36 mph to the maximum of 100 mph), the third and final engine-on mode kicks in. This one is differently geared so that the effective ratio of engine speed to road differs.

But like Low Extended-Range mode, it too continuously adjusts among the engine operating speed, the use of one or both motors, and batttery charge to deliver the power demanded by the driver in the most energy-efficient way.

As we noted in an earlier article, the evolution of Voltec toward a more conventional two-motor hybrid system--similar to those used by Toyota and Ford, and more distantly Honda

------------------------------------------

 

[fhteagle]

Correct, all generations of Volts can physically transmit torque from the ICE to the wheels.

i3 REX was, and Ramcharger supposedly will be electrically connected only.
This may be part of why the Ramcharger's efficiency might end up being near the bottom of its class, though.

 

[Startreknerd]

I wish the Ramcharger pricing was out so we could compare to the CT tomorrow. At first I looked at the Ramcharger and thought, these Stellantis guys are frauds. They are still just burning gas and calling it an EV which is true if its used wrong, which some idiots will. If you literally never plug in and just let the 3.6L ICE engine always recharge the vehicle you are an idiot and you should just buy an ICE truck. But if you mostly plug in and hopefully can use solar or some clean energy, then you could probably do 95% of your driving with the 150 mi battery range and not really use the engine. But when you are hauling or going on a long trip, that 690 miles of range with the gas generator built in seems like it might really be worth it. Granted, don't fool yourself into thinking its an EV at that point, but really its the best of both worlds if you know how to use it. I would gladly give up the frunk space for that V6.

I have to imagine its going to be stupid expensive, but my experience with RAM trucks is that they are built really well. And if they price it right, that would be a really really awesome truck if used right. With a 92 kWh battery and a 3.6L V6 and the specs it is proposing I have to imagine it will be a $85k to $95k truck though. With that being their first truck out of the gate it might not gain much traction at that price point and i hope I am wrong. So far that truck is the only other EV truck that has really caught my attention just because it does offer a huge range advantage and I don't mind maintaining an ICE engine (to some degree). That engine would probably see only 5% of the use a normal engine would so maintenance should be very minimal.

Link for those unfamiliar with the truck Ramcharger

But, oil....

Nope

 

[Variable556]

Depending on price, I’m interested in it.

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