Winching...

Timoj

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Lots of ways.

There's the simple mechanical ones, such as bending or wearing the drive shaft in the motor from uneven loading. Then there's complex ones like wearing out the encoder or uneven demagnetization or heat damage to controller coils or capacitors.

I'm not saying I think it's likely, though, just that it's plausible.

-Crissa
I guess it’s good to play devils advocate on these things but I’m pretty sure a competent engineer can solve for failure modes of intermittent use.





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ajdelange

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How would you damage the traction motor?
It wasn't damage I had in mind. The traction motors and gearing are designed to transmit power to the wheels of the vehicle and to do so at the maximum possible efficiency and that efficiency is chased to a fraction of a percent. To split the power mechanically would require extra gears, clutches, shafts, bearings etc and even while in the "disconnected" mode those components would introduce losses. That's not acceptable here where every watt counts. In addition you can't put a PTO shaft just anywhere. But you can run wire just anywhere.

Think a bit about the heat pump compressor. Why do you think it is driven by a separate electric motor as opposed to using mechanical takeoff from the traction motor as is done in ICE vehicles?
 

ldjessee

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Having seen a wide variety of electric motors burn out, from aircraft tugs to forklifts to 3/4" drive hammer drills... electric motors can be burnt out. And, I have seen people offroading burn up or otherwise damage gas and diesel engines as well...

Things fail, got abused, or something weird happens and before you know it... blam.
 

Timoj

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It wasn't damage I had in mind. The traction motors and gearing are designed to transmit power to the wheels of the vehicle and to do so at the maximum possible efficiency and that efficiency is chased to a fraction of a percent. To split the power mechanically would require extra gears, clutches, shafts, bearings etc and even while in the "disconnected" mode those components would introduce losses. That's not acceptable here where every watt counts. In addition you can't put a PTO shaft just anywhere. But you can run wire just anywhere.

Think a bit about the heat pump compressor. Why do you think it is driven by a separate electric motor as opposed to using mechanical takeoff from the traction motor as is done in ICE vehicles?
I hear you. But a heat pump is used every time the vehicle moves. Generally in an ICE vehicle the engine is running the whole time and it’s just advantageous to use an easily controlled electric motor. I believe the Bollinger B1&B2 are going to include a hydraulic winch because they’re using hydro-pneumatic suspension.

A winch “should” realistically only be used a few times a year. Which is why the suboptimal 12v electric motor is used, cheap simple to install aftermarket. The duty cycle and power of a small motor is only just functional for those rare use cases.

The efficiency price is definitely an engineering challenge but considering the use cases a PTO still has merit.

All that said I think Tesla will just provide 110v/240v and control wires to the front/rear and provide user customisable software to control what ever is plugged in to it.
I wonder which aftermarket manufacturers will be the first to build the appropriate winch to utilise it.....!?
 

TruckElectric

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New Jeep concept Magneto comes with a Warn winch!

Jeep's Magneto Concept Is the Fully Electric Wrangler of the Future
This Wrangler EV matches the stock V-6 model's performance—and it even has a manual transmission.
Jeep-Magneto-1.jpg

https://www.motortrend.com/news/jeeps-magneto-concept-wrangler-ev-photos-details/

Magneto comes with a 2-inch lift, auxiliary lighting, a roll cage, rock rails, a Warn winch and 35-inch Falken WildPeak mud-terrain tires.
https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/...cepts-magneto-ev-jeepster-wrangler-gladiator/


"it has an electric motor that offers up to 273 pound-feet of torque and 285 horsepower, and it comes equipped with an 800-volt system spread across four battery packs"
https://www.theverge.com/2021/3/22/...eto-concept-ev-manual-transmission-stellantis
 

rjo71342

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New Jeep concept Magneto comes with a Warn winch!

Jeep's Magneto Concept Is the Fully Electric Wrangler of the Future
This Wrangler EV matches the stock V-6 model's performance—and it even has a manual transmission.
Jeep-Magneto-1.jpg

https://www.motortrend.com/news/jeeps-magneto-concept-wrangler-ev-photos-details/

Magneto comes with a 2-inch lift, auxiliary lighting, a roll cage, rock rails, a Warn winch and 35-inch Falken WildPeak mud-terrain tires.
https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/...cepts-magneto-ev-jeepster-wrangler-gladiator/


"it has an electric motor that offers up to 273 pound-feet of torque and 285 horsepower, and it comes equipped with an 800-volt system spread across four battery packs"
https://www.theverge.com/2021/3/22/...eto-concept-ev-manual-transmission-stellantis
the issue is that yes it is a off road capable ev but once you add that manual transmission you have added another level of failure points and second point is cybertruck is dimensions a ex us military humvee which means it can do more things than a wrangler
 

ldjessee

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I am not a fan of added complexity, but the ability to change gear ratios may prove to be a useful tool for off-roading... but I would need to be convinced.

Might also let them have a slow off-road oriented gears at the low end, but allow for better efficiency the road. (I would need to be shown this)

This is a converted Wrangler... not a production model.
 

Crissa

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Might also let them have a slow off-road oriented gears at the low end, but allow for better efficiency the road. (I would need to be shown this)
That's basically what it does. Lets you choose the crawl rate mechanically, which also increases the power to the wheels.

-Crissa
 

Luke42

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the issue is that yes it is a off road capable ev but once you add that manual transmission you have added another level of failure points and second point is cybertruck is dimensions a ex us military humvee which means it can do more things than a wrangler
Bolting an electric motor onto a manual transmission vehicle is how the garage hotrodders made EV conversions 20 years ago.

I'd love to hear the engineering thought process behind using this method for a "look what we can do!" concept car.

I appreciate that a heavy transmission is part of the W&B for Jeeps, and that their traditional drive train is their secret sauce. But, replacing that heavy transmission with a heavy battery and switching to dual or quad motors strikes me as the way to go.

But, then again, I have made exactly 0 Jeep EV conversions IRL (though I've proposed a BOM for a CJ2 conversion), so I'd love to hear how the real engineers who actually built something decided on their approach.
 

Frankenblob

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It wasn't damage I had in mind. The traction motors and gearing are designed to transmit power to the wheels of the vehicle and to do so at the maximum possible efficiency and that efficiency is chased to a fraction of a percent. To split the power mechanically would require extra gears, clutches, shafts, bearings etc and even while in the "disconnected" mode those components would introduce losses. That's not acceptable here where every watt counts. In addition you can't put a PTO shaft just anywhere. But you can run wire just anywhere.

Think a bit about the heat pump compressor. Why do you think it is driven by a separate electric motor as opposed to using mechanical takeoff from the traction motor as is done in ICE vehicles?
Yep, the more moving/working parts the increased chance there is of wasted efficiency, energy and failure.

I did trades for a stint and what I learned was the less complications - on a roof - ( dormers, valleys, skylights...) the better chance exists of no leaks or problems.

Casted parts for Tesla is a great idea.
 

ldjessee

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As far as I have seen, this is not how Jeep intends for the all electric Wrangler production model to be built. This is a conversion to work as a prototype (and maybe test mule).

I am sure given the history of a diesel jeep and then the all electric Jeep, I could see given that history (and Nikola and the Hummer), I could see them wanting a show worthy concept that actually works, drives around, and is not rendered or a static display mockup.
 

Timoj

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I am not aware of any deadspace under the cybertruck. between the batteries, vault cover, suspension and storage... unless you mean the storage under the bed and want to use that for the winch...
The Dead space would be between the “penthouse” under the rear seats and the rear motor assembly; as in the space Rivian are using for the gear tunnel in the R1T.
I have a feeling is might be taken up by the tonneau cover, but maybe there’s enough room for another motor and winch spool.
 

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