Battery Pack Teardown Photos Reveals Empty Spaces (Sandy Munro Live)

[HaulingAss]

Elon didn't say what you think he said.

When he spoke of how long it would take the Cybertruck to become "Cash flow positive", he's speaking of how long it will take Tesla to sell enough to pay off all the development costs, the equipment (like the gigacasting machines), the factory space they are manufactured in, the crash testing and regulatory approvals, etc, etc, etc.

In the interim, they will be making more money than it costs to build each one. That's how they pay off all their Cybertruck investments. If they can do it in two years, that is exceedingly quick for a new platform by legacy auto standards.

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[firsttruck]

At first glance Sandy gave the impression 32mm was the total height but after looking at it again in more detail the referenced 32mm must not include the exposed portion of the fiberglass member but just the aluminum stringer (25mm) plus the additional height from the stamped cover (6-7mm). Compare with his finger here:

That's a lot more encouraging for the prospect of an eventual pack with a taller cell as they could theoretically fit something taller than a 4695.

If they used 4695 there probably would still leave plenty of room for emergency cell gas exhaust.

46120s ?
Not sure if room for emergency cell gas exhaust if used 46120s but maybe there is enough, not sure.

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BatteryLine: Battery Industry: 4680 / 4695 / 46120 / 46xxx battery cell makers & plans
2024 April 16
https://www.cybertruckownersclub.co...-46120-46xxx-battery-cell-makers-plans.14780/

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[Crissa]

If they wanted taller cells, or even double stacked, it would be relatively simply to just stamp a deeper bottom cover and make taller stringers if needed. It would reduce ground clearance of course.

They could also - since the pack is what the front seats sit on - reduce headroom, too.

-Crissa

 

[Woodrick]

And yet again, I have to explain that it isn't what I am talking about. I am talking about the fact that I hate being forced to stop. Yes, I am forced to stop with ICEVs, and I hate that also. But guess what? On a road trip, it is a non-event. I don't have to plan where we stop. I can decide where we want to eat, pee, whatever, and then grab some gas at the same time.

Again, you just don't get it yet.
I can decide where we want to eat, pee, whatever, and then grab some electrons at the same time all the time. I look for locations where I want to stop, there are so many now, that I get to pick and choose.

It appears that Virginia's Interstates are covered nearly every exit!

 

[BannedByTMC]

They could also - since the pack is what the front seats sit on - reduce headroom, too.

-Crissa

They could but that changes other spatial relationships in the vehicle as well since it raises the floor. The height of the footwell decreases, (which could cause issues for larger feet, especially with boots), as does the space between the steering wheel and the seat, (unless they lower the seat rail height). In any case it's not as easy or cheap as just using a deeper pack bottom.

 

[RVAC]

If they wanted taller cells, or even double stacked, it would be relatively simply to just stamp a deeper bottom cover and make taller stringers if needed. It would reduce ground clearance of course.

Definitely, up to a point.

I think a double stack would be beyond that point, there are also structural and safety considerations that make it undesirable.

If they used 4695 there probably would still leave plenty of room for emergency cell gas exhaust.

46120s ?
Not sure if room for emergency cell gas exhaust if used 46120s but maybe there is enough, not sure.

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BatteryLine: Battery Industry: 4680 / 4695 / 46120 / 46xxx battery cell makers & plans
2024 April 16
https://www.cybertruckownersclub.co...-46120-46xxx-battery-cell-makers-plans.14780/

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The exposed fiberglass portion is roughly equal in height to the aluminum stringer, which according to the Munro video should be ~25mm. That is more vent space than what is present in the MY 4680 pack which is ~12mm if my pixel peeping from this image is correct:

That ~25mm of vent space should be enough for a 46120 even if the requirement doesn't scale linearly as it's double the height relative to a 50% increase in energy per cell.

 

[firsttruck]

I just saw this CT battery pack teardown posted to munro live on twitter: .

The pack clearly has extra room for taller cells. It makes a lot more sense now that Rivian was talking about 4690 cells and I think Samsung has been planning to make 46120 cells. Tesla must have plans to make or acquire taller 46XX cells at some point for the CT! The range extender must be a holdover and suggests to me that Tesla thinks they need to make the range extender because they won't have taller cells anytime soon.

Yup, in the near future there may be several sources of taller 46xxx cells.

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BMW Gen6 Battery System
September 12, 2022
batterydesign.net - Battery Design from chemistry to pack
By Nigel Taylor
Engineering and physics background with >30 years in the automotive industry
https://www.batterydesign.net/bmw-gen6-battery-system/

.....
46120
Nominal energy: 148 to 180Wh
Mass: ~0.53kg
Diameter: 46mm
Height: 120mm

The 120mm high cell is definitely for the larger SUV’s as this will result in a battery pack height of around 155 to 170mm (6.7") at best.

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Lithium-Ion Battery Roadmap – Industrialization Perspectives Toward 2030
December 2023
Fraunhofer ISI
https://www.isi.fraunhofer.de/content/dam/isi/dokumente/cct/2023/Fraunhofer-ISI_LIB-Roadmap-2023.pdf

.....
Several OEMs such as BMW and GM as well as start-ups like Nio, Rivian and Lucid Motor have announced their intention to use large cylindrical cells for future vehicle generations. More precisely, BMW plans to use 4695 (420-450 g, ~140 ml, 32-36 Ah) and 46120 (530-560 g, ~180 ml, 40-46 Ah) cells in its upcoming next-generation "Neue Klasse" electric cars, expected by 2025.

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Potentials of 46 mm cylindrical cells: On the way to the new standard format
by Dr. Christoph Neef / April 11, 2023
https://www.isi.fraunhofer.de/en/bl...potenziale-standardformat-batteriezellen.html

.....
Comparing the different cell versions from 4640 to 46120, it can be assumed that the overall manufacturing effort is quite similar. Even the production of the longer cells with a height of 120 mm likely does not lead to any significant reduction in assembly cycle times compared with the shorter formats. Only the electrolyte wetting process is likely to scale significantly with the cell length. The bottom line is that the higher energy per cell in the comparison between 4680 and 46120 could nevertheless result in cost savings of up to 20% in assembly. At the level of total cell costs, however, this saving is again put into perspective, since the share of assembly costs in total costs is likely to be only 5 to 7% due to the currently very high material prices.


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EVE Energy North America – 46 Series Specifications
Models: "4680", “4595” and “46120” sizes.
https://www.evebatteryusa.com/46-series-specifications

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Samsung SDI expands battery factory to manufacture 46120 batteries in Europe
18 August 2023
https://batteryindustry.tech/samsun...ory-to-manufacture-46120-batteries-in-europe/

.....
Samsung SDI, the South Korean battery maker, is planning to expand its battery factory in Goed, Hungary within the year. The expansion, called stage two, will allow the company to manufacture batteries with a diameter of 46mm. Customer BMW has specifically requested Samsung SDI to produce 46120 batteries, which are 46mm in diameter and 120mm in length.

.....
In addition to the 46120 batteries, Samsung SDI is also anticipated to manufacture 4680 and 4695 batteries. The 4680 batteries, popularized by Tesla, are gaining traction among electric vehicle manufacturers. Samsung SDI will start by developing the 4680 batteries before moving on to produce 4695 and 46120 batteries.

To support this expansion, Samsung SDI already operates a pilot line for the batteries in Cheonan, South Korea, and it is expected to commence production in Malaysia as well.


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BMW Plans Move to Structural Battery Packs and ‘46120’ Cells
New energy-dense cylindrical cells earmarked to provide a host of benefits for BMW’s next-generation EVs.
January 9, 2023
By Lawrence Ulri
https://www.mobilityengineeringtech.com/component/content/article/47422-sae-ma-07064

....
For its sixth-generation EV batteries, BMW and its battery partners – including China’s CATL and EVE Energy – will adopt even-larger cells of “4595” and “46120” sizes.

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Lishen released 46120 160Wh/kg Cylindrical Sodium-ion Battery. Lishen Model: LR46120
Tianjin Lishen Battery Joint-Stock Co., Ltd
2024 March

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[Knucklehead]

Again, you just don't get it yet.
I can decide where we want to eat, pee, whatever, and then grab some electrons at the same time all the time. I look for locations where I want to stop, there are so many now, that I get to pick and choose.

It appears that Virginia's Interstates are covered nearly every exit!

What if I want to stop in Radford?

 

[Woodrick]

What if I want to stop in Radford?

Okay, you got me. You can be too stubborn to accept advice.

But where would a 500 mile battery make a difference here.

But I'll go there.

You stop by the CCS charger or if visiting the University, the J-1772 locations in town.
Staying overnight, try the Tru Hotel by Hilton.
BTW, it's pretty easy for me to find places where there's no gas stations in range as well.

 

[Woodrick]

Elon didn't say what you think he said.

When he spoke of how long it would take the Cybertruck to become "Cash flow positive", he's speaking of how long it will take Tesla to sell enough to pay off all the development costs, the equipment (like the gigacasting machines), the factory space they are manufactured in, the crash testing and regulatory approvals, etc, etc, etc.

In the interim, they will be making more money than it costs to build each one. That's how they pay off all their Cybertruck investments. If they can do it in two years, that is exceedingly quick for a new platform by legacy auto standards.

I'm pretty sure that's not correct. Development costs, production costs aren't amortized over the first vehicles, they are spread over the life of the equipment.

 

[Knucklehead]

Okay, you got me. You can be too stubborn to accept advice.

But where would a 500 mile battery make a difference here.

But I'll go there.

You stop by the CCS charger or if visiting the University, the J-1772 locations in town.
Staying overnight, try the Tru Hotel by Hilton.
BTW, it's pretty easy for me to find places where there's no gas stations in range as well.

Not in Radford.

Anyway, longer range means I have more flexibility to stop where I want. Fewer forced stops is better. That's all.

 

[Crissa]

Not in Radford.

Anyway, longer range means I have more flexibility to stop where I want. Fewer forced stops is better. That's all.

You need to stop anyhow.

More places to charge up while doing what you want to is key.

This isn't a fuel that needs to be tended and watched. You just plug and play.

Today I went to Stanford for an event. My Zero can't make it back without charging. But it didn't take me any additional time... I just parked in a charging stall and went on to the event. My bike was charged before I got back.

My spouse had to actually divert and go to a gas station, and take time to fuel her Ducati. I didn't.

-Crissa

 

[HaulingAss]

I'm pretty sure that's not correct. Development costs, production costs aren't amortized over the first vehicles, they are spread over the life of the equipment.

That's true, but Elon's statement that the Cybertruck might not be "cash flow positive" for some time, can be understood to mean overall cash flow positive, ie. sales exceed all Cybertruck specific expenditures to date. Basically, the Cybertruck is a drag on Tesla's cash on hand until the investments are paid off. That's different than cost accounting per vehicle.

The Cybertruck platform is a massive investment for Tesla and it's a net drag on their financial standing until the project as a whole is in the black.

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