140 mile round-trip on FSD v13 yesterday - some observations

[Carlos Thomas]

In version 12 there were things that jumped out that needed to be address:

1. Tailgating
2. Late Braking
3. Left Hand Turns
4. Hugging the Left Side of the Lane
5. No Turn on Red

In v13, addressed the tailgating and I would say it is 80% better. On the freeway there were a couple of times where it did not need to be as close as it was to the car in front. Regardless of the mode, it should never tailgate at 6,600+ pounds. If the car in front has an abrupt stop, the Cybertruck does not have the time to safety stop. It is just plan math. There should be the “distance” option like I have seen with the cruise control to solve this. Then people can choose their comfort zone. From a full autonomy point of view it just should never tailgate in high speed situations where they cannot safely stop. If Tesla is serious about the cyber cab, this has to be address because the passengers will not have the option to select a distance or comfort level.

Late Braking has been solved (along with abrupt acceleration from a stop light).

Left Hand Turns has been solved.

Left hand Lane Hugging is 95% solved. I took the Cybertruck to the places where it consistently struggled in v12. The area it still struggles is narrow tunnels with two lanes. For some reason if it is in the left lane in the narrow tunnel, it hugged the left hand side for the first 30% of the tunnel then adjusted slightly. The truck was touching the road reflectors on the left yellow line, which is inches away from the tunnel wall. When it moved over to the right hand lane, it was completely centered. For those that live in the Bay Area, it was the Webster Tunnel that goes under the water from Oakland to Alameda.

No turn on red, 100% fail. It doesn’t understand or see that it is not supposed to. I tested it on a no turn that has two large signs that call it out. It was late at night so no big deal, but I was hopefully the person behind me wasn’t a cop.

By and large, I am really impressed with v13 and have much more confidence. I did not try Hurry. I did Standard and Chill. I like Standard minus the two times it did tailgating it did not need to do at 65+ mph. It was slightly above the speed limit and confident. Chill was mostly at the speed limit and only tailgated once. Lane changes on the highway were a little less confident. It got into a tailgate situation then made a signal then a lane change. Three different steps. It should have not gotten into a tailgate situation and make the lane change prior to show more confidence.

Sponsored

 

[DoberManPin-Sure]

- Hurry --> LA Mode
- Standard --> Texas Mode
- Chill --> Boca Raton Mode

Based on my admittedly limited driving in LA and half-century of driving in Texas, I'd flip the two of those. I'm in HTX and am always in Beast and now "Hurry" mode.

Chill geography sounds right.

 

[carsly]

Based on my admittedly limited driving in LA and half-century of driving in Texas, I'd flip the two of those. I'm in HTX and am always in Beast and now "Hurry" mode.

Chill geography sounds right.

I don't know, changing lanes on those six lane (in each direction) freeways with separate HOV lanes is no task for the timid, especially during rush hour. It's been years since I've regularly driven in Texas, and traffic does move much faster, but I'd rate aggression higher in LA. But why guess? I asked Grok for the municipalities with the highest and lowest accident rates in the US. So I guess Hurry is now Memphis Mode and we'll replace Chill with Raleigh Rally.


The municipalities with the highest and lowest accident rates in the United States vary based on different metrics such as population density, road conditions, driving behaviors, and local laws. Here's an overview based on available data:

Highest Accident Rates:

1. Memphis, Tennessee - Known for having the highest motor vehicle accident fatality rate per 100,000 residents. Memphis also ranks near the top for the frequency of accidents, which reflects the high level of risk for drivers in this city.
   https://www.forbes.com/advisor/legal/auto-accident/cities-most-car-accidents/
2. Baltimore, Maryland - Baltimore has been identified as the city with the most automobile accidents, averaging one collision every 4.19 years per driver. The city's high accident rate is also influenced by its infrastructure, including high-speed expressways, and the behavior of its motorists.
   https://www.forbes.com/advisor/legal/auto-accident/cities-most-car-accidents/
3. Atlanta, Georgia - Atlanta has been named among the most dangerous cities for drivers, with a high likelihood of collisions compared to the national average. This is attributed to factors like limited public transportation options, leading to more car usage.

Lowest Accident Rates:

1. Raleigh, North Carolina - Raleigh stands out as the city where motorists have the lowest risk of becoming involved in a motor vehicle accident, suggesting effective road safety measures or perhaps better driving habits among its residents.
   https://www.forbes.com/advisor/legal/auto-accident/cities-most-car-accidents/
2. Honolulu, Hawaii - Honolulu is noted for having one of the lowest rates of people involved in fatal crashes, which could be due to a combination of strict traffic laws, good infrastructure, or a different driving culture influenced by the island's unique urban layout.
3. Boston, Massachusetts - Boston is considered one of the safest cities for drivers, with low rates of fatal accidents per capita and per mile traveled. This might reflect Massachusetts's generally lower motor-vehicle death rates and possibly effective urban design and traffic management.
   https://injuryfacts.nsc.org/state-data/motor-vehicle-deaths-by-state/

Please note that these rankings can shift year by year due to changes in infrastructure, law enforcement, population growth, or changes in driving behavior. Also, the data might not reflect the very latest trends as of December 19, 2024, since comprehensive studies often have a lag in reporting.

 

[DoberManPin-Sure]

returning around 5pm it was darkening out, on a narrow country lane there was a bicyclist on the tight right shoulder who was difficult to see but they appropriately had a blinking red/white light on the back of the bike. Cybertruck was ready to assert its lane dominance and buzz the biker, maybe knocking them over. As the other side of the double yellow was clear I broke off FSD to put my drive wheels just over the double yellow to give the bicyclist a 3+ foot cushion. This really should be the default behavior, unless CT didn't see the bicyclist.

I appreciate your detailed report, but, as a cyclist with 10s of thousands of miles logged on and off the road, I especially appreciate this mention and your consideration. By law (at least in TX, but presumably in all jurisdictions) cyclists are entitled to be on the road, albeit subject to the same laws as vehicle drivers (excluding min speed, of course). I haven't encountered a cyclist while in FSD yet, but plan to take your cautious, thoughtful approach. There are far too many white "Ghost Bikes" on the side of our roads, each signifying where a cyclist was killed by a vehicle.

Ride on!

 

[DoberManPin-Sure]

I don't know, changing lanes on those six lane (in each direction) freeways with separate HOV lanes is no task for the timid, especially during rush hour. It's been years since I've regularly driven in Texas, and traffic does move much faster, but I'd rate aggression higher in LA. But why guess? I asked Grok for the municipalities with the highest and lowest accident rates in the US. So I guess Hurry is now Memphis Mode and we'll replace Chill with Raleigh Rally.


The municipalities with the highest and lowest accident rates in the United States vary based on different metrics such as population density, road conditions, driving behaviors, and local laws. Here's an overview based on available data:

Highest Accident Rates:

1. Memphis, Tennessee - Known for having the highest motor vehicle accident fatality rate per 100,000 residents. Memphis also ranks near the top for the frequency of accidents, which reflects the high level of risk for drivers in this city.
   https://www.forbes.com/advisor/legal/auto-accident/cities-most-car-accidents/
2. Baltimore, Maryland - Baltimore has been identified as the city with the most automobile accidents, averaging one collision every 4.19 years per driver. The city's high accident rate is also influenced by its infrastructure, including high-speed expressways, and the behavior of its motorists.
   https://www.forbes.com/advisor/legal/auto-accident/cities-most-car-accidents/
3. Atlanta, Georgia - Atlanta has been named among the most dangerous cities for drivers, with a high likelihood of collisions compared to the national average. This is attributed to factors like limited public transportation options, leading to more car usage.

Lowest Accident Rates:

1. Raleigh, North Carolina - Raleigh stands out as the city where motorists have the lowest risk of becoming involved in a motor vehicle accident, suggesting effective road safety measures or perhaps better driving habits among its residents.
   https://www.forbes.com/advisor/legal/auto-accident/cities-most-car-accidents/
2. Honolulu, Hawaii - Honolulu is noted for having one of the lowest rates of people involved in fatal crashes, which could be due to a combination of strict traffic laws, good infrastructure, or a different driving culture influenced by the island's unique urban layout.
3. Boston, Massachusetts - Boston is considered one of the safest cities for drivers, with low rates of fatal accidents per capita and per mile traveled. This might reflect Massachusetts's generally lower motor-vehicle death rates and possibly effective urban design and traffic management.
   https://injuryfacts.nsc.org/state-data/motor-vehicle-deaths-by-state/

Please note that these rankings can shift year by year due to changes in infrastructure, law enforcement, population growth, or changes in driving behavior. Also, the data might not reflect the very latest trends as of December 19, 2024, since comprehensive studies often have a lag in reporting.

Great data. Interesting and a bit surprising.

I think our disconnect relates to "Hurry" mode translating necessarily to aggressive driving or higher accident rates. I regularly get scolded and put in trip "time out" by FSD for exceeding the 85 mph limit, but I tend to drive in off-rush hour time slots and, therefore, on more open roads.

Also, per Chrome AI and my experience, the "Katy Freeway" (runs west of HTX to Katy, TX) is one of the, if not the, widest freeways in the world. It's briefly part of my commute.

Safe travels and thanks again for the post!

 

[BengalBoy]

Also experienced this, not sure if it's a timing method to calibrate the refresh rate?

I got no idea but it's definitely a bug. Dry and cold today in Alabama. Still randomly does it as soon as I activate FSD and randomly thereafter.

Great experience today that really impressed me with this FSD 13 as compared to FSD 12 versions. A jerk of a truck driver tried to move into a "left turn only" to avoid traveling further down the highway. This left me and another driver trapped behind his trailer which still extended across our lane of traffic during the green light while heavy traffic was zooming past us on the right. I was prepared to sit through the light for another cycle until the semi-truck made his left and pulled the trailer out of my lane. However, the car in front of me saw a gap to move over the right lane and quickly did so. Shortly after, 007 did exactly the same thing in a very smooth and rapid way. I didn't miss the light after all.

 

[ModelXer]

So I had to take a 70 mile trip each way yesterday for an electrical inspection on a property across New Jersey. Our highways run north-south for the most part until you're near NYC so this was cutting west to east across the state to the coast. Lots of windy back roads, blind turns, bizarre intersections and crested hills. Figured I'd make the run with FSD v13 that just installed the night before and see how it goes. Here were my observations:

• Driving was much smoother - acceleration, braking (especially coming into a red light or stop sign was far less abrupt and more natural) and handling tight turns the truck did a much better job of slowing down to make the turn, maintain speed in the turn, and gently accelerate out - kind of like a person would do
• Steering was smoother - I was having the mid-turn correction issue on tight right-hand turns with abruptness in the actions as well as the crashing into center medians on left-hand turns. Both of those sets of issues seem to have been resolved.
• I like having the driving profiles back - I tend to drive on chill to maintain plenty of cushion for braking/unanticipated situations and the prior 'one size fits all' profile was quite aggressive
• Ended up doing the 140+ mile round trip with only a few interventions

The interventions:

• returning around 5pm it was darkening out, on a narrow country lane there was a bicyclist on the tight right shoulder who was difficult to see but they appropriately had a blinking red/white light on the back of the bike. Cybertruck was ready to assert its lane dominance and buzz the biker, maybe knocking them over. As the other side of the double yellow was clear I broke off FSD to put my drive wheels just over the double yellow to give the bicyclist a 3+ foot cushion. This really should be the default behavior, unless CT didn't see the bicyclist.
• At one intersection there are two lanes that turn left, I tend to stay in the right-hand lane as 400 yards ahead at the next light the left-hand lane turns into a left-turn only lane. CT wanted to move into the left lane for the first turn which would then necessitate another lane change to the right hand lane post-turn in order to go straight at the next light, straight at that light is the intended (and mapped) direction of travel. I broke off here as traffic gets very busy and merging right again can be difficult in the short distance between intersections. Easier and safer to stay in the right-most lane and then just go straight.
• In my local neighborhood Cybertruck was very close to a school bus. The bus slowed and turned on a right-turn indicator. Cybertruck was riding up on the bumper of the school bus as it slowed. I broke off, backed off to give the bus room and waited to see if it was going to switch to flashing yellow lights or flashing red lights. As the bus ended up slowing to turn, I then safely passed it on the left. Prudence here would be to take a similar action, back off, observe, collect more data on the situation and then choose an action.

There were 1-2 more that I can't recall at the moment, I did record and send snippets from each intervention to help the FSD team continue to tune the models. All in all, it was surprisingly relaxing (and still odd) to be chauffeured by the truck. Elon is correct in stating that $8K for FSD is too cheap to have an on-call private driver 24x7x365. The rub is this driver is no longer a teenager but is still a mid-20 something with solid experience and decent road sensibilities but not always observant of the safest course of action in low frequency situations as I've noted above. The awe-inspiring thing is Cybertruck didn't even have FSD until a few months ago so I'd guesstimate it's gained 10 years of driving experience in roughly 10 weeks (I've driven this loop with the prior FSD so can compare directly). At this rate, expect it to go from very, very good to near-flawless by mid-2025. Glad we have lifetime FSD in the Foundation Series, it will pay off in spades!

Your interventions are consistent with what I've observed on the latest V12 in my MX. I dislike intensely that after a right turn, it wants to immediately move to the left lane even though the next turn is a couple miles away, there's no traffic in the right lane, and is another right turn. It sometimes even makes a right turn into the left lane which is both dangerous and illegal.

 

[lonnielevi]

I had a terrible time with it today. Unusable for me. l I started out at 3am from Virginia on a 15 hour drive to Florida. After an hour I had to switch back to cruise control only.. set speed to 72 on both hurry and standard. it fluctuated from 63-72 every few mins, turns it slowed down straights it sped up. Coming up to cars where 12.x would move over and pass in advance, it would come up on the car slow down for 30 seconds and then eventually pass. It was super annoying and jerky going up and down speed. I couldn’t take it, tried again a few hours later and same result. just not good maybe it a night/dark thing.. but it’s a step backwards in my book when on a long journey and the road is clear, you just want it to drive 70 for more than 1 min!

I had this exact same problem on Christmas Eve. Completely unusable. Had to switch back to basic Autopilot. It was the first time I felt I couldn’t trust FSD around curves on the highway. It would make wide swings in the lane, ride on the lines, and nauseating speed adjustments. It was honestly giving me motion sickness from the driver’s seat. I immediately felt better once I switched to basic Autoipilot.

 

[Speedr]

I had this exact same problem on Christmas Eve. Completely unusable. Had to switch back to basic Autopilot. It was the first time I felt I couldn’t trust FSD around curves on the highway. It would make wide swings in the lane, ride on the lines, and nauseating speed adjustments. It was honestly giving me motion sickness from the driver’s seat. I immediately felt better once I switched to basic Autoipilot.

What state is this? In Florida, it is amazing.

 

[lonnielevi]

Central Kentucky area. Tried it on many different types of higher speed roads. I75/I64, KY-4, US 60, Bluegrass Parkway. It’s the same everywhere. It just cannot maintain a steady speed and ping pongs its way through curves.

Sponsored