Are you using a Residential-rated receptacle Then an EV Industrial Rated receptacle to charge?

[Ogre]

All the time spent on this forum and watching Munro Live has paid off simply because of learning this bit of info. I plan on installing a Tesla Wall charger at home, but planned on having dad install a 240V outlet at his house for me when I visit. It’s 290 miles driveway to driveway. Driving 70-80 MPH most of the way on a cold winter day, I’m going to be rolling in with a pretty low battery, and at least at first, I plan on driving it a lot the next day showing it off. Original plan was to charge at max current all night once I got there, but with a new super charger opening close to my parents house, I may stop there for 10-15 minutes on the way home. Either way, when it comes time for him to install the outlet I will go shopping and buy the $100 one for him, as well as talk to his electrician about this.

Although this information is scary, and it’s definitely a failure, I would like to point out, the only stories I have heard are people saying they ALMOST burned their house down. When done right electrical equipment should not fail, but are often designed so that if they do fail, they are designed to mitigate the damage and prevent catastrophic failure. To pass UL, the industrial electrical products my company makes has to pass the cotton test. We have to wrap the product in cotton then intentionally short it out. If the cotton catches on fire, the test failed. The devices are high voltage (480V and 690VAC three phase) and high current (mostly up to 300A but a few products over 700A). When you short out a 300A device, the power cables going to it actually twitch.

If in doubt, it is quite easy to lower the amount of power your car/ truck draws through the circuit from the console.

Might end up needing to stop at that Supercharger for 5-10 minutes though

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[flowerlandfilms]

Me, an Australian, comfortably pulling 240 out a regular outlet.
Looking at y'all like, didn't you produce both Tesla and Edison?
What's with this medieval setup you got going over there?

 

[JBee]

Let alone most of our houses having 3phase 400V sitting in the fuse box, and all that with a way smaller population density.

 

[Crissa]

Early adopter means worse system.

-Crissa

 

[HaulingAss]

I plan on have a professional installation of a wall adapter, since I can get rebates. Oddly, I need a VIN first lol

The melted example in the Munro video was installed by a licensed electrician. Sometimes it's better to do things like this yourself, or at least educate yourself enough to know when your electrician did it wrong.

 

[HaulingAss]

Me, an Australian, comfortably pulling 240 out a regular outlet.
Looking at y'all like, didn't you produce both Tesla and Edison?
What's with this medieval setup you got going over there?

It's called "bean counters figuring out how to cheapen up the product". It is easy to make them robust but because so many consumers just buy the cheapest product, it comes down to pushing the limit with the ratings to see how cheaply they can make it. Yes, the problem originates with consumers buying the cheapest thing. But that's why we have ratings so part of the problem is that manufacturers can squeak these cheap products through testing by using best installation practices. But that doesn't leave much margin for error.

There is a lot of misinformation in that Munro video (although I fully agree with the general gist of it). The fact is, there is no such thing as an electrical rating that is "dryer rated". Outlets are rated to a specific amp rating and are designed to handle that amp rating on a non-continuous basis. That doesn't mean they all do, just that's the product claim via it's rating. A lot of it has to do with the quality of the install too. I could make the $100 Hubble outlet fail too with a poor install, it's just going to be more difficult than making a $25 oulet fail.

There is no such thing as a 50 amp outlet that is rated for continuous duty at 50 amps. Electrical circuits, including the receptacle, are required to be de-rated by 20% when the load is continuous (for example an EV charger). That's why EV chargers that are designed to plug into a 50-amp receptacle are de-rated to a maximum of 40 amps and newer generations are typically voluntarily de-rated to 32 amps. That said, some of these cheap outlets cannot even handle that (even though they are rated for it)! But, like I said, many of these problems are created by poor install techniques. It's important to get the full torque on the terminal screws and for the wire strands to be well placed during the tightening procedure. It's not necessarily difficult but electricians are not always well educated on how to do it properly (or they think their time is more important than such mundane details). A little dielectric grease on the strands and on the threads of the terminal screw can help increase the security and longevity of the connection.

It's a good practice to periodically measure the temperatures of all the connections in your charging circuit after the car has been charging at maximum rated current for a couple of hours. In this way, connections that are failing can be identified before they get hot enough to melt and start a fire. No way in hell I would use a cheap outlet but most of them could be made serviceable and safe with the proper installation. I'm not recommending that as the consequences of failure are too high to trust to a cheap outlet.

 

[CyberGus]

The melted example in the Munro video was installed by a licensed electrician. Sometimes it's better to do things like this yourself, or at least educate yourself enough to know when your electrician did it wrong.

I’ve read enough threads on TMC to be able to ask intelligent questions. If the installer wants to use Romex or 6ga I’ll know it’s time to take more bids.

 

[jerhenderson]

installed a direct line to a Tesla wall charger...60A panel, 30A breaker with a line capable of 100A upgrade.

 

[Deleted member 12457]

Me, an Australian, comfortably pulling 240 out a regular outlet.
Looking at y'all like, didn't you produce both Tesla and Edison?
What's with this medieval setup you got going over there?

There's really no reason to push 220/240V to common receptacles around a house. The only reason for 220/240V outlets is for dryers and ovens. Electric water heaters and HVAC systems don't use plugs. We have too many kids electrocuting themselves on 120V outlets, we'd have many more with 220/240V outlets. The crazy thing is many appliances, TVs, computers and just about everything else in houses nowadays step down the 120V to 12V and 5V. Why even provide 120V in the living room or bedrooms when LEDs don't take that much power nor do clocks, TVs or phone chargers.

 

[Bill906]

Me, an Australian, comfortably pulling 240 out a regular outlet.

What is the current rating of that regular outlet? I’m honestly curious, I do not know.

Let alone most of our houses having 3phase 400V sitting in the fuse box, and all that with a way smaller population density.

Well the 400VAC would help in lowering the amount of current for the same amount of power. Are there 400VAC outlets available? Or would you have to hardwire that to something like a wall charger? The main point they were making were the outlets failed (but did also show some type of junction box). The outlets and the junction box components were designed for a clothes dryer or electric range that never pulls full power for the amount of time an EV does. Their claim is that they weren’t designed for a 100% duty cycle. I do get annoyed when people throw around the term “duty cycle” without giving a time frame. If I pull 48A through that plug continuously for a month, and then leave it off for a month, that is technically a 50% duty cycle. Without specifying a timeframe, the term is meaningless. But I digress…
Your 400VAC system would keep this problem from happening simply because it would not be using the outlet or junction box components designed for devices like dryers and ranges. Along with the 400VAC requiring less current for the same amount of power.

The melted example in the Munro video was installed by a licensed electrician. Sometimes it's better to do things like this yourself, or at least educate yourself enough to know when your electrician did it wrong.

Sandy literally said to use an electrician and not some guy who read a book on it. I recommend getting an electrician and sharing what you know about EV charging with them. Educate yourself is always a good idea, but use that education to help choose a good electrician, not do it yourself.

 

[HaulingAss]

Sandy literally said to use an electrician and not some guy who read a book on it. I recommend getting an electrician and sharing what you know about EV charging with them. Educate yourself is always a good idea, but use that education to help choose a good electrician, not do it yourself.

As I said, there is a lot of misleading info in that video. A licensed electrician installed the melted outlet and the burned junction box. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to understand that not all licensed electricians are better than an informed homeowner who cares enough to do it properly.

 

[firsttruck]

As I said, there is a lot of misleading info in that video. A licensed electrician installed the melted outlet and the burned junction box. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to understand that not all licensed electricians are better than an informed homeowner who cares enough to do it properly.

Yup, you have to learn these things yourself in-order to supervise.

There are way toooooooo many supposed professionals ( in all types of jobs) that do not know how to do a quality job or if they do choose not to do it.

 

[Ogre]

There's really no reason to push 220/240V to common receptacles around a house. The only reason for 220/240V outlets is for dryers and ovens. Electric water heaters and HVAC systems don't use plugs. We have too many kids electrocuting themselves on 120V outlets, we'd have many more with 220/240V outlets. The crazy thing is many appliances, TVs, computers and just about everything else in houses nowadays step down the 120V to 12V and 5V. Why even provide 120V in the living room or bedrooms when LEDs don't take that much power nor do clocks, TVs or phone chargers.

Nothing more than history.Amperage could be a lot lower too now that we don’t need 500w for televisions and 250w for lighting. Imagine how much easier and safer it would be to wire a house if outlets were replaced with USB-C and voltage were

Yup, you have to learn these things yourself in-order to supervise.

There are way toooooooo many supposed professionals ( in all types of jobs) that do not know how to do a quality job or if they do choose not to do it.

getting a license requires passing a test. Getting a permit requires surpassing minimum requirements. This is all a licensed electrician gets you.

Brains cost extra.

 

[JBee]

What is the current rating of that regular outlet? I’m honestly curious, I do not know.



Well the 400VAC would help in lowering the amount of current for the same amount of power. Are there 400VAC outlets available? Or would you have to hardwire that to something like a wall charger? The main point they were making were the outlets failed (but did also show some type of junction box). The outlets and the junction box components were designed for a clothes dryer or electric range that never pulls full power for the amount of time an EV does. Their claim is that they weren’t designed for a 100% duty cycle. I do get annoyed when people throw around the term “duty cycle” without giving a time frame. If I pull 48A through that plug continuously for a month, and then leave it off for a month, that is technically a 50% duty cycle. Without specifying a timeframe, the term is meaningless. But I digress…
Your 400VAC system would keep this problem from happening simply because it would not be using the outlet or junction box components designed for devices like dryers and ranges. Along with the 400VAC requiring less current for the same amount of power.



Sandy literally said to use an electrician and not some guy who read a book on it. I recommend getting an electrician and sharing what you know about EV charging with them. Educate yourself is always a good idea, but use that education to help choose a good electrician, not do it yourself.

Standard 240V wall socket outlet is 10A and some are 15A which have a larger earth pin. These are for larger appliances and tools. 415V wall sockets are also available and are typically 32A (22kVA) but can go up to 63A in a house or 200A in more industrial settings. The plugs are also specific to outlet rating, so you can't plug a big appliance into a small rated outlet.

One f the dominate reasons for having 3phase is that nearly all our distribution networks, both overhead and underground (which is law now) is by 415V (now 400V) 3 phase lines, which also automatically gives you 3 lines of 240V power without any extra hardware at all. (No transformers etc). 400V is simply the voltage between 2 of the 3 phases, and 240V (now 230V) is the voltage between one phase and neutral or ground.

Some rural settings only have a single phase overhead feeder to save cost, and then they have a 3 phase converter on the end instead if they need it.

As for protection it's also law here to have earth fault protection, that trips in the mA range.

Duty cycle is a misnomer in most ratings, as product suppliers often only use peak ratings instead. It's the manufactures fault to not allow enough overhead to accommodate failure modes. The outlet melted because it lacked the ability to dissipate the heat it generated (insulated wall, poor ventilation etc), and likely because the connector itself was dirty/corroded/poor which added to the resistance and generated more heat than it would have if it had new contacts.

 

[Bill906]

I understand three phase very well. One of its 2 main advantages is you can transfer more power per conductor. In the US almost all transmission is three phase AC (Just like in Austrialia and everywhere else). There is three phase power on the power pole outside my house but the transformer only steps down a single phase that goes to my house. In the US it was decided a long time ago that three phase isn’t needed in a residential home and (I assume) cheaper to use single phase from transformer to house. Which is basically true. Other than powering large AC motors (motors greater than roughly 5HP) Single phase can do whatever three phase can do, given the same amount of power.

Is Earth fault protection required at the entire house level? In the US, it’s only required in certain locations, basically anywhere the power could be used near water. Bathroom outlets, kitchen outlets, outside, garage etc. Does it trip at the outlet or at the circuit breaker? In the US we have both options but almost everyone goes for the outlet trip as it’s easier to reset. Actually I haven’t seen a circuit breaker GFCI in a house in a very long time. They may not be used anymore.

Power wise, your 240VAC 10A outlet is the equivalent to our 120V 20A standard outlet. I believe we have a 120VAC 30A outlet, but it’s rare. Typically the next size up from the Standard 120VAC 20A outlet is the 240VAC 30A used for electric clothes dryers.

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