cvalue13

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The prototype answered this question years ago. There will be a visible section of lighting at the corners when the tailgate is down.

D0BAA428-156A-4153-90AE-146F6BFDA60A.png
I’m talking about the high center stop light, which would be on the center of the tailgate

(And as for the corner stop lights, the new version didn’t follow the OG prototype approach)
Sponsored

 

PilotPete

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the third break light is I believe to be mounted “as high as is practicable” under the regs

with the CT’s construction, and built in tonneau, I think the tailgate could be justified as being as high as practicable

in any event, I’m not imagining where else it could go

and on prior betas the break light was in this tail light cluster

wish the photos above had caught the truck breaking!
Ok, so here is the actual regulations regarding “Center High Mounted Stop Lamps” or CHMSL, from 49 CFR § 571.108 Standard No. 108; Lamps, reflective devices, and associated equipment

Under “Definitions”: High-mounted stop lamp means a lamp mounted high and possibly forward of the tail, stop, and rear turn signal lamps intended to give a steady stop warning through intervening vehicles to operators of following vehicles.

S6.1.1.2 High-mounted stop lamps. Each multipurpose passenger vehicle, truck, and bus required by this standard to be equipped with a high-mounted stop lamp, whose vertical centerline, when the vehicle is viewed from the rear, is not located on a fixed body panel but separates one or two moveable body sections, such as doors, which lacks sufficient space to install a single high-mounted stop lamp on the centerline above such body sections, must have two high-mounted stop lamps identical in size and shape.

S6.1.1.2.1 The two lamps must be located at the same height, with one vertical edge of each lamp on the vertical edge of the body section nearest the vehicle centerline.

S6.1.3.4 High-mounted stop lamps.

S6.1.3.4.1 Interior mounting. A high-mounted stop lamp mounted inside the vehicle must have means provided to minimize reflections from the light of the lamp upon the rear window glazing that might be visible to the driverwhen viewed directly, or indirectly in the rearview mirror.

S6.1.3.4.2 Accessibility. Each high-mounted stop lamp must provide access for convenient replacement of bulbs without special tools.

S6.1.4.1 High-mounted stop lamps.

S6.1.4.1.1 A high-mounted stop lamp mounted below the rear window must have no lens portion lower than 153 mm [6 in] below the lower edge of the rear glazing on convertibles, or 77 mm [3 in] on other passenger cars.

S6.3.1 No high-mounted stop lamp is permitted to be combined with any other lamp or reflective device, other than with a cargo lamp.

S6.3.2 No high-mounted stop lamp is permitted to be optically combinedwith any cargo lamp.

TABLE 1A Requirements

High Mounted Stop Lamp - NUMBER AND COLOR - 1 Red, or 2 red where exceptions apply. See Section 6.1.1.2 / MOUNTING LOCATION - On the rear including glazing, with the lamp center on the vertical centerline as viewed from the rear / MOUNTING HEIGHT - Not less than 34 inches except for passenger cars. See Section 6.1.4.1 / DEVICE ACTIVATION - Steady burning. Must only be activated upon application of the service brakes or may be activated by a device designed to retard the motion of the vehicle.

TABLE V-D Visibility Requirements
Stop lamp -Unobstructed minimum effective projected luminous lens area of 1250 sq mm through horizontal angle of H-45° IB to H-45° OB. Where more than one lamp or optical area is lighted on each side of the vehicle, only one such area on each side need comply.


I left out all the photometry requirements for equivalent brightnesses.
 

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Hm… somehow I envisioned it as being thicker. You know, like the same thickness as the DRL bar in the front. Better than not having a rear brake light bar at all, I suppose. Kind of reminds me of a neon light, which tracks with the cyberpunk aesthetic.
I think I like the thinner look better also wouldn’t thinner be more durable less likely to break and have a bunch of scratches that plastic has overtime? Steel trumps plastic 🤓
 

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I'd like to see the middle light on the tailgate go back and forth like a Cylon/K.I.T.T (I know for legal reasons they won't do it, but it would be fun, no?)

And I'd like the slow speed sound of the CT to be the swooshing sound of K.I.T.T's light from the show.
 


cvalue13

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Ok, so here is the actual regulations regarding “Center High Mounted Stop Lamps” or CHMSL, from 49 CFR § 571.108 Standard No. 108; Lamps, reflective devices, and associated equipment
yes and none of which really clarifies the boundary conditions for where it must be located generally, or in case of placement on a tailgate

The general rule for all lights is below, and past that the code has info on various exceptions that don’t appear to apply to the CT facts

“S6.1.3 Mounting location.

S6.1.3.1 Each lamp, reflective device, and item of associated equipment must be securely mounted on a rigid part of the vehicle, other than glazing, that is not designed to be removed except for repair, within the mounting location and height limits as specified in Table I, and in a location where it complies with all applicable photometric requirements, effective projected luminous lens area requirements, and visibility requirements with all obstructions considered.”
 

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yes and none of which really clarifies the boundary conditions for where it must be located generally, or in case of placement on a tailgate
Well, it really does specify where, to the extent that you can make that distinction and have it apply and work with every possible car/truck/SUV design.

It specifies "mounted high and possibly forward of the tail, stop, and rear turn signal lamps" and "...a single high-mounted stop lamp on the centerline..." (and then says if you can't mount it there) And "MOUNTING LOCATION - On the rear... with the lamp center on the vertical centerline as viewed from the rear / MOUNTING HEIGHT - Not less than 34 inches"

So in government-ese, it can be on the center of the tailgate, or in the center of the cab (not part of the cargo light) either above or below the rear window, but has to be visible from the rear. So for the CT, below the rear window doesn't work with either the tailgate or the vault cover. Above the rear window would work, but it would have to be on top of the whole vehicle because of the vault cover, or in the aft slanted roof section, but then that couldn't be tinted. So the top of the tailgate in the center works, as any option forward of the tail, stop, and rear turn signal lamps won't work (and that section says "possibly"). And it is not less than 34" up.

Those are the limitations and boundaries listed. It isn't overly restrictive. Remember, when they wrote this, the auto makers had their lobbyists in the room arguing against every limitation they wanted to include in the regulation. And being a Federal regulation, it is NOT easily changed. So to "under limit" at first is better than the alternate.
 

cvalue13

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Those are the limitations and boundaries listed. It isn't overly restrictive.
sorry, the question was about compliance with the tailgate down

that question is avoided in other trucks, for which I can’t think of another with the high center stop not on the cab

the Code talks about other exceptions - eg for mounting on saloon-style rear doors that bisect the centerline

I suppose it just comes down to driving with tailgate down is out of compliance - like driving with SUV rear hatch up, or van saloon doors open, etc.
 

PilotPete

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sorry, the question was about compliance with the tailgate down

that question is avoided in other trucks, for which I can’t think of another with the high center stop not on the cab

the Code talks about other exceptions - eg for mounting on saloon-style rear doors that bisect the centerline

I suppose it just comes down to driving with tailgate down is out of compliance - like driving with SUV rear hatch up, or van saloon doors open, etc.
Yes, and no.

Each state has their own laws regarding objects that stick out of the back further than the tail lights/rear bumper. In CA, I believe anything beyond 36” requires that you place a red flag on it at least 144/sq”, or something like that. I’ve hauled lumber in a truck that one end sat against the closed tailgate, and the other sat on the cab. That covered the brake light, and wasn’t ”non-compliant”. I see rear windows on cars tinted, which dims the brake light, no one cares. The issue is the same as the side mirrors, There are federal DOT standards by which the vehicle must be manufactured, and then once delivered, there are state laws governing the condition of the vehicle when operated on public roads. If your state doesn’t specifically require side mirrors, rip ‘em off and use the cameras! If it does, rip ‘em off at your own risk. My buddy has a place here and in AZ, the car is registered in AZ, where they don’t issue or require a front license plate. But CA does. Since he’s registered in AZ, the CA cops leave him alone because there is no violation for him based on the home state of the car.

If you drove your CT in CA with the tailgate down and the ramp extended, you’d have tp place a red flag on it. There, you’re now legal.
 

cvalue13

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Each state has their own laws regarding objects that stick out of the back further than the tail lights/rear bumper.
Which is relevant to what discussion?

Can individuals do things with their vehicles to obscure required lights? Sure. They can, as you point out, put tint over break lights.

But the question is: can manufacturers pass regulatory compliance with vehicle lightning designs that operate to obscure required lights in some expected/normal course use cases

The answer to that appears to be “yes,” based merely from the inferences from the design of the CT having the high center on the tailgate

but I took it people were wondering how, exactly, that “works” from a manufacturer compliance perspective given no apparent analogous design in other trucks


Unlike an SUV driving with its rear hatch open so obscuring the center high stop light, which is a rare exception case to the design and manufacturers could tell regulators eg the vehicle is not intended to be operated that way - a pickup truck tailgate being down is a more expected if not advertised use case in the design (eg “you can fit a sheet of plywood with the tailgate down”) which would tend to make one think that tailgate down configuration would be expected to continue to comply

it’s a narrow question and just an oddity of interest
 


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I think the tailgate is tall enough to constitute "high up".

Third brakelights exist on hatches for like all suvs so having it on a movable portion shouldn't matter.
 

cvalue13

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Third brakelights exist on hatches for like all suvs so having it on a movable portion shouldn't matter.
double clicking on that assertion was the original point


Unlike an SUV driving with its rear hatch open so obscuring the center high stop light, which is a rare exception case to the design and manufacturers could tell regulators eg the vehicle is not intended to be operated that way - a pickup truck tailgate being down is a more expected if not advertised use case in the design (eg “you can fit a sheet of plywood with the tailgate down”) which would tend to make one think that tailgate down configuration would be expected to continue to comply
 

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I would be surprised if the Cybertruck does not have its 3rd brake light behind the glass up high. Mine is on the cab of my F-150 with the cargo light. The CT doesn't have a cargo light up high like that so, I expect a "windshield camera-like" enclosure on the inside of the roof with the light. That way, it'll be visible regardless of the vault's open status.
 
 




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