PilotPete

Well-known member
First Name
Pete
Joined
May 8, 2023
Threads
12
Messages
1,577
Reaction score
3,952
Vehicles
Porsche, BMW, M3LR on order
Occupation
Chief Pilot
Country flag
I have a Porsche that I'm not selling. It's not the brand new 911 I originally wanted, but I'm happy.
Sponsored

 

JBee

Well-known member
First Name
JB
Joined
Nov 22, 2019
Threads
18
Messages
4,795
Reaction score
6,175
Location
Australia
Vehicles
Cybertruck
Occupation
. Professional Hobbyist
Country flag
What was funny about my post, @JBee ?

Like, they're comparing a car with a base price 2x the other. It's a dumb comparison.

-Crissa
Well not really a dumb comparison between the vehicles, but probably dumb to use the EPA range to make a comparison at all?

Both vehicles offer similar performance, but according to the article, which you probably didn't read, it said that Porsche opted for the simpler EPA test which resulted in a instant 30% EPA range reduction, whilst Tesla opted for the more complicated test, which resulted in a 30% better EPA range.

The point of the article was not just to compare the two vehicles, as much as it was to show how ridiculous and out of touch the EPA rating is in the first place. If the EPA modelling differs not by the physics involved in the test, but by the complexity of the test, then the EPA ranges are simply pointless, as they offer no common set of values to compare anything with. Especially so if they don't even publish the type of test used for each vehicle, in such a way it could be used to weight the comparison.

Sort of defeats the whole purpose of having a independent EPA range test at all.
 

Diehard

Well-known member
First Name
D
Joined
Dec 5, 2020
Threads
23
Messages
2,127
Reaction score
4,249
Location
U.S.A.
Vehicles
Olds Aurora V8, Saturn Sky redline, Lightning, CT2
Country flag
What was funny about my post, @JBee ?

Like, they're comparing a car with a base price 2x the other. It's a dumb comparison.

-Crissa
To be frank, I thought you were joking too (for the reasons JBee mentioned). Silly part is how useless EPA numbers are.
 

cvalue13

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 17, 2022
Threads
74
Messages
7,147
Reaction score
13,759
Location
Austin, TX
Vehicles
F150L
Occupation
Fun-employed
Country flag
I think I've seen two of those types of videos. One was a Rivian pulling a Syclone truck I think but I can't recall the car in the other one. It was an older smaller sport car [Alfa Romeo 4C Spider ].

https://electrek.co/2016/03/21/tesla-drag-race-alfa-romeo-vs-alfa-romeo-towed-by-model-x/
pMd4oro.jpg

I bet they recreate that video where they beat a car in a race while towing that car. And the towed car beats the driving one
these vehicles are all so powerful they’re traction limited. what this stunt really ~shows is, put another 250lbs over the rear wheels (~2500lb trailer tongue weight), and the MX will either get off the line faster or no different, net-net. (Note that they never show or disclose who ‘won’, as eventually drag and traction don’t matter anymore at speed)

I have to save this video for next time someone brings up that dumb CT-F150 “tug of war” video

or, god forbid, on Nov 30 they rehash that tug video with a Lightning

spoiler alert: the vehicle with larger tire contact patch, stickier tires, and more weight, wins
 


scottf200

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 31, 2021
Threads
44
Messages
1,600
Reaction score
2,553
Location
Chicagoland
Vehicles
Tesla Model X
Country flag
Note that they never show or disclose who ‘won’, as eventually drag and traction don’t matter anymore at speed)
This 47-second video clip does show a side view of the car in the trailer ahead of the non-trailered car :)
 

cvalue13

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 17, 2022
Threads
74
Messages
7,147
Reaction score
13,759
Location
Austin, TX
Vehicles
F150L
Occupation
Fun-employed
Country flag
This 47-second video clip does show a side view of the car in the trailer ahead of the non-trailered car :)
yeah fair enough

though the 4C has a 0-60 of 4.1 sec, while the P90DL is 3.1sec

all-in-all, the launch is probably the same or better for the P90DL because of the added traction offsetting the added weight, but it ultimately won by only a length because drag etc?
 

Crissa

Well-known member
First Name
Crissa
Joined
Jul 8, 2020
Threads
130
Messages
17,096
Reaction score
28,349
Location
Santa Cruz
Vehicles
2014 Zero S, 2013 Mazda 3
Country flag
To be frank, I thought you were joking too (for the reasons JBee mentioned). Silly part is how useless EPA numbers are.
JBee has said he laughs are my posts because they're wrong.

EPA numbers are pretty useful, but there are so many variables... I preferred the old one highway speed, one start and stop city reference. 🤷‍♀️

-Crissa
 

JBee

Well-known member
First Name
JB
Joined
Nov 22, 2019
Threads
18
Messages
4,795
Reaction score
6,175
Location
Australia
Vehicles
Cybertruck
Occupation
. Professional Hobbyist
Country flag
JBee has said he laughs are my posts because they're wrong.

EPA numbers are pretty useful, but there are so many variables... I preferred the old one highway speed, one start and stop city reference. 🤷‍♀️

-Crissa
I didn't say I would only laugh at your posts because they are wrong.

From memory in that convo, you were complaining that your sense of humor doesn't always come across, so maybe I was over compensating? ;)

But admittedly there was a bit of irony in the laugh that you caught onto, and that was because you'd missed the point of the article, probably because you didn't read it yet and commented prematurely, which still seems to be the case from your above comment.

I'd recommend reading the article to get an idea of how the EPA comparison of those two vehicles worked, or as the case may be, didn't work at all.
 


Crissa

Well-known member
First Name
Crissa
Joined
Jul 8, 2020
Threads
130
Messages
17,096
Reaction score
28,349
Location
Santa Cruz
Vehicles
2014 Zero S, 2013 Mazda 3
Country flag
I know how the EPA numbers are made. It's a dumb comparison because of course the more aerodynamic vehicle will have 'more realistic' range because it doesn't lose more range to someone hooning.

It would have been better to compare the S and the Taycan, and even then, since companies get to choose how deeply they calculate it. some are going to calculate it better or worse.

See also Ford's discontinued hybrid problem, https://www.cybertruckownersclub.co...ng-for-delivery-event.9701/page-3#post-193668 where they used the EPA's estimate system instead of actually running the calculations like Tesla did because that would have made it obvious they were fudging.

The basic problem is the EPA defined range as 'when the vehicle stops' and not every company decided that was the point to choose. Many early EVs had problematic ranges since they could stop earlier than the guessometer would expect.

-Crissa
 

JBee

Well-known member
First Name
JB
Joined
Nov 22, 2019
Threads
18
Messages
4,795
Reaction score
6,175
Location
Australia
Vehicles
Cybertruck
Occupation
. Professional Hobbyist
Country flag
I know how the EPA numbers are made. It's a dumb comparison because of course the more aerodynamic vehicle will have 'more realistic' range because it doesn't lose more range to someone hooning.
Not sure how those two correlate to each other, what has hooning got to do with aerodynamics?

They are not too dissimilar vehicles, and the result was technically in MY favor given the smaller battery capacity and significantly lower cost?

Despite this, lets agree that the EPA could do much better at producing useable results for customers to use to compare.
 

JBee

Well-known member
First Name
JB
Joined
Nov 22, 2019
Threads
18
Messages
4,795
Reaction score
6,175
Location
Australia
Vehicles
Cybertruck
Occupation
. Professional Hobbyist
Country flag
Well, it's generally associated with going faster than you need to, not just burning out tires, right?

-Crissa
But what has that got to do with the EPA rating, if you can hoon in both vehicles?
Sponsored

 
 




Top