Cybertruck price increase?

HaulingAss

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I wouldn’t say 110v is for “emergency charging only” though, it’s just a bit less convenient. Only 50x better than dealing with gas stations every 200-300 miles instead of 100x better.
Less convenient and less efficient. Charging on 120 V gives your EV a bigger carbon footprint and costs more also.
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HaulingAss

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1-3 depending on weather and driving habits. But even that level will let you completely pre-heat the truck in the morning without losing range. Or manage the battery in cold or hot weather.

It will not be great. But you can set your charging at whatever the outlet can manage, so if you have a 20a tool outlet you can get a little more, or a 240v outlet at 3-11kW. A Tesla is really flexible in that regard, without having to do much fiddling.

If you drive a thousand miles a month, you'll probably be able to make do, with a stop at the store or movie with a charger added in every once in awhile. That hundreds of mile range comes in handy that way.

-Crissa
120 V @ 15 Amps will not allow pre-heating without losing range on a cold morning. The Cybertruck will have a more powerful heat pump than the Model Y. In fact, in cold weather with a cold battery, 120 V won't even start charging for an hour or more after plugging in because it has to heat up the battery before the BMS will allow it to accept even a small charge.

Owning an EV should be more convenient than an ICE car, not less.
 

HaulingAss

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That's... Completely untrue. I have no idea how you could come to that conclusion.

-Crissa
The overhead of the charger running for more hours is less efficient. Yes, it's well established that charging at 120 V is less efficient than 240 V.

I charged my Model 3 through one winter on 120V and it was not fun! I had to stop at Superchargers that I drive right by now that I have adequate home charging. And I have unlimited free Supercharging. Supercharging is good for road trips, I just charge to 60% and I'm on my way. When I had sub-standard home charging Supercharging became inconvenient because it takes a lot longer to get it to 80% which is where I needed it to be before I drove the 50 miles home.
 


HaulingAss

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How many miles/hour do we think we’ll get using 120V cord on the CT? I’m guessing very low.
I would get between 2 and 3.5 mph on my Model 3 depending mostly upon how cold it was outside. I averaged just under 3 mph. If you need a long extension cord it could be less because resistance becomes a factor when maxing out a 15 amp outlet and long extension cord. All connections will get a little warm.

A Cybertruck will be at least 25% less than that because it needs more juice to go the same distance. The Model 3 is really efficient. With a quality extension cord you would be lucky to get 2 mph in cold weather. Plugged directly into the wall you might average 2 mph in cold weather.

It's really easy and doesn't cost much to add a 240V outlet or Wall Connector in most situations.
 

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That's not how chargers work. At all. It's at most a percent difference or so.

-Crissa
Chargers have to rectify the AC into DC. A charger that is rated at 48 amps will be most efficient around 43-48 amps and 240V. Using 120V on a large battery and large charger creates all kinds of inefficiencies. The 10% overhead used as a rule of thumb does not apply when charging with 120V and only 15 amps. The inefficiency is nearly doubled. And the car does not go into the deep sleep because it's never done charging. Using 48 amps and 240 V the car will sleep most of the night.

A sleeping car is a lot more efficient over the course of a night.

Trust me, I've done it both ways and would never go back to 120 V charging. It literally would never get to even 80%. The car never went to sleep, I was either driving it (and I don't drive all that much) or I was charging it. Yes, it uses a lot more electricity. In a warm climate you might squeak by if you don't have far to drive. Even then, many people have to sit at Superchargers or (worse) public level 2 chargers. It got to the point I didn't want to turn the heat on to conserve battery power.

Anyone buying an EV should get an adequate charge solution if it's feasible at all.
 
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HaulingAss

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You do know that Superchargers also rectify AC into DC, right?

-Crissa
Yes, 240V charging requires rectification also. The point is, the equipment is designed to be most efficient at or near its rated capacity. Running it at 1/10 power is very inefficient. I regularly get mid-forties in terms of charge miles per hour using 48 amps 240V. You do the math.
 

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120 V @ 15 Amps will not allow pre-heating without losing range on a cold morning. The Cybertruck will have a more powerful heat pump than the Model Y. In fact, in cold weather with a cold battery, 120 V won't even start charging for an hour or more after plugging in because it has to heat up the battery before the BMS will allow it to accept even a small charge.

Owning an EV should be more convenient than an ICE car, not less.
Even the Cybertruck with 110v would be *more* convenient than an ICE car. It’s like having an ICE car and the gas fairy sneaks into your yard and adds 4 gallons of gas every night. Even if you still occasionally need to hit the Supercharger, that will eliminate 80% of fuel stops. The range lost while you are heating up your **plugged in** charge is minimal. Unless you are actually doing a 320 mile trip you will never notice it.

I do think the investment in 220v is worth it for for the Cybertruck or even the Model Y, but 110v is not near as bad as you make it out to be. It is still hugely convenient compared to filling up once a week. We end up hitting Superchargers only when we’re doing long trips.
 


HaulingAss

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Even the Cybertruck with 110v would be *more* convenient than an ICE car. It’s like having an ICE car and the gas fairy sneaks into your yard and adds 4 gallons of gas every night. Even if you still occasionally need to hit the Supercharger, that will eliminate 80% of fuel stops. The range lost while you are heating up your **plugged in** charge is minimal. Unless you are actually doing a 320 mile trip you will never notice it.

I do think the investment in 220v is worth it for for the Cybertruck or even the Model Y, but 110v is not near as bad as you make it out to be. It is still hugely convenient compared to filling up once a week. We end up hitting Superchargers only when we’re doing long trips.
I've shared my experience accurately as those of a cold climate Model 3 owner. Many live in even colder climates than I do and have had even a more difficult time of it. A Cybertruck owner will have a more difficult time of it due to it's higher energy consumption.

My comments are accurate as shared and I don't appreciate the implication that I'm exaggerating. If you live in a milder climate and/or park the car in a protected space, the results will be better. However, 120V will never be as efficient as 240V charging for the reasons previously detailed and that's why I recommend 30 Amps @ 240V as the minimum home charging solution even in a warmer climate. Some people will not care about efficiency. So be it. It doesn't make anything I've said an exaggeration.
 

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Those saying “less efficient” keep citing “miles of range added per hour”, but that is a charging speed. The charging efficiency is “miles of range per metered kWh”. Longer cable runs will induce losses at both 120v and 240v.

Charging at 240v is definitely faster than 120v. There are probably some greater efficiencies at that higher rate, but I’m skeptical that it’s significant. I don’t have that data.

Agreed that 120v charging gets real old real fast. I’ll be installing a 240v charger when the time comes.
 

HaulingAss

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Those saying “less efficient” keep citing “miles of range added per hour”, but that is a charging speed. The charging efficiency is “miles of range per metered kWh”. Longer cable runs will induce losses at both 120v and 240v.

Charging at 240v is definitely faster than 120v. There are probably some greater efficiencies at that higher rate, but I’m skeptical that it’s significant. I don’t have that data.

Agreed that 120v charging gets real old real fast. I’ll be installing a 240v charger when the time comes.
It makes perfect sense to cite miles added per hour as long as the amount of current is specified. That completes the comparison and is why I said, "you do the math".

Here's an example:

Tesla says the Model 3 adds about 3 miles of range with 120V @ 12 Amps. 12 Amps current @ 120V = 6 amps of current at 240 V.

Tesla says the Model 3 adds about 44 miles of range at 240V @ 48 Amps. 48 amps @ 240V is 8 times the current of 12 Amps @ 120V.

If the efficiency was the same, you should only get 24 miles of range per hour with 8 times the current. Even if we consider rounding errors (maybe the model 3 gets closer to 4 miles of range per hour at 120V) that would still only be 8 x 4 = 32 miles of range per hour. Yet we get 44 miles of range with 240V @ 48 amps.

I admit this is rough math using miles added per hour but it illustrates perfectly how dramatically the efficiency drops due very low charge rates. It's called "fixed charging overhead". Some parts of the charger and the car have the same consumption regardless of charge rate. The faster charging can be completed, the sooner the car can go to sleep. A car that is charging whenever it is not being driven is not efficient.

This should not be controversial at all. I would hope that all EV owners understand how to get the best efficiency out of their EV's because the difference is not small.
 
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Crissa

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Yes, 240V charging requires rectification also. The point is, the equipment is designed to be most efficient at or near its rated capacity. Running it at 1/10 power is very inefficient. I regularly get mid-forties in terms of charge miles per hour using 48 amps 240V. You do the math.
That's not how chargers work.

They have multiple banks of circuitry and merely turn off 9/10ths of them.

You can't 'run a charger at 1/10th'. It runs or it doesn't.

-Crissa
 

HaulingAss

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That's not how chargers work.

They have multiple banks of circuitry and merely turn off 9/10ths of them.

You can't 'run a charger at 1/10th'. It runs or it doesn't.

-Crissa
At 120 V 12 Amps the circuitry is very lightly loaded and inefficiencies are introduced. This is only one part of the low efficiency at a very slow charge rate. Please see my explanation above. I have no idea how many charge circuits there are, I just know the net result of 120V charging is lower efficiency.

This should not be controversial. The charge times are not very proportionate to the current consumed.
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