Help. Why not the Rivian?

[HaulingAss]

Uh, isn't there another company that was closed for about 10 years so others decided to go a different direction? They are opening it up as the others are now as well.

You should get your facts straight.

Tesla needed a fast-charging standard for their Model S but the standards bodies were very slow moving. Tesla didn't want to delay the release of the Model S so they designed a standard on their own dime and told everyone else they were welcome to join them. But legacy auto and crew unwisely decided to incorporate the outdated J1772 Level 1&2 standard into the new CCS fast charging standard and not to go with Tesla's standard that incorporated fast charging into the same charging pins that handled the slower Level 1 and Level 2 charging.

It was an excercise in stupidity, but it was an attempt by the legacy automakers to isolate the little upstart called Tesla (who they were sure would die out if they didn't support their standard). They also didn't want a slick charging standard like Tesla had developed because a big, bulky and unwieldy CCS standard would slow EV adoption so consumers would continue to favor gas cars.

The standards bodies did not approve a fast DC charging standard until after Tesla was already building out the Supercharger Network. Tesla continued to invite other manufacturers to join them and share the cost of building out the infrastructure in proportion to the number of EVs they had using the network, but legacy automakers were not interested in spending money on charging infrastructure. They knew a lack of charging infrastructure would keep buyers beholden to their gas cars.

In other words, it was Tesla with the first-mover advantage in fast charging infrastructure and legacy auto and crew who decided to do it differently, in a less optimum manner, to screw Tesla over. The charging chaos you see now is the direct result of legacy manufacturers anti-competitive behavior. They too could have had a sleek, sexy charging standard but they were more interested in slowing EV adoption than cooperating for the good of all.

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[HaulingAss]

Both brands blew it on the max range models but Rivian gets the win on range & both are opening SC network to the others soon enough.

What? Rivian is opening their fast DC charging locations up to other EVs?

All 40 of them in North America?

 

[Fleetwood75]

For what it’s worth I had a Rivian reservation that I canceled after I did a test drive. My opinion was that it was an overall good vehicle but overpriced. I would have strongly considered buying it and canceling my Cybertruck reservation if it had been like 25% cheaper.

One area that I really felt the Rivian fell short was the audio system. It couldn’t hold a candle to our Model X, or even our Yukon

 

[pricedm]

For me it is the Dyson hairdryer headlights. Just can't

Fact: Rivian took motivation for headlight design from the classic oval carabiner.

 

[pricedm]

As big skiers...

We’ve got a garage and home charger at both ends of trip.

What am I missing?

Not missing anything. I canceled my Rivian pre-order because I didn't want to deal with the expense of PPF-- or sandblasted paint after a few winter seasons of ski traffic--and potentially less-than steallar glass quality (who knows if the "glass is thin" posts on the Rivian forum is whining or legit...).

I think the Cybertruck body will hold up better as a ski "daily drive" and that's why I'm getting one.

PS-- start harping on your favorite ski resorts to add more chargers. I'm working on a slope-side project at my Winter Park, CO condo as charging is inadequate (and frequently ICEd).

 

[HaulingAss]

Who know if/when the range extender is coming out for the CT if that is even a prion for you, Rivian actually has the patent on the Range Extender.

I would like to see Rivian try to make Tesla pay for the idea of a range-extender battery. That would land Rivian in a world of hurt.

 

[HaulingAss]

EV's struggle in cold climates and I wouldn't buy one until things change. Batteries have lower capacity in cold weather, discharge faster, and heating a cabin draws a lot of energy. You also have a higher density air to drive through, charging speeds are diminished, and even the drop of PSI in your tires will hurt range. 200 kWh is a necessity in cold climates.

The oft repeated idea that EVs "struggle" in cold climates is not really reality, especially if you already have over 300 miles of normal EPA range. The truth is that range is reduced, primarily due to cabin heating needs, but also to the other factors you mention. The cold battery isn't the issue because the stored energy doesn't really diminish, it just isn't available until the battery is warmed up again. And that happens using waste heat as you drive down the highway.

The drop in tire pressure doesn't matter if you are responsible and maintain your own tire pressures. 200 kWh is not a neccesity in cold weather, at least not any more than 140 kWh is a necessity in warm weather. What is key, is good EV charging infrastructure. Big batteries are over-rated when you have that. Everyone's needs are different, but I've been using a 75 kWh battery Model 3 Performance as my primary ski car and I never run short on range because the charging infrastructure is good.

When storm skiing, my Model 3 gets buried in snow and I use my phone to turn on the cabin heat on my last chairlift ride of the day. If anything, I would say gasoline and diesel vehicles struggle in cold climates. That's why you will see the 120V pedestals for block heaters at every parking spot in many areas. Gas and diesel consumption goes through the roof in winter storms with all the time it takes to defrost the car.

A better way to say what you are trying to say is that cold climates have increased need for better charging infrastructure.

 

[HaulingAss]

Batteries struggle even at 45 Fahrenheit. Tesla won't warm the battery up much from that temperature, if at all. If you are in Canada, the battery is too small for you. In California it is perfectly fine.

Incorrect. The battery warms up from waste heat as the car is driven. Tesla has the best thermal managment systems in the auto business. You can see this happen as you drive. It usually takes around 45 miles of freeway driving for the battery to fully warm from waste heat in such conditions. The net effect is that a cold battery doesn't affect range at all, only the useage of cabin heat and the other environmental factors such as denser air, colder tires and bearings (which also warm up on a long trip) and potential winter winds and snow.

Norway is definitely a cold climate and over 80% of new cars sold there are already pure battery electric cars. There is no "struggle" in cold weather. It's simply less range which is taken into account by the size of the batteries in most EV's sold today. Teslas are the most popular EV in Norway, probably because they have superior temperature management systems for cold weather.

 

[CyberGus]

The cold battery isn't the issue because the stored energy doesn't really diminish, it just isn't available until the battery is warmed up again

Cell internal resistance goes up at lower temperatures, so more energy is wasted as heat. Of course, this warms the cell eventually, but there are losses from the cold initially. It’s less of a problem on longer drives, once the battery has warmed.

 

[HaulingAss]

I am just saying EV's struggle at very cold temperatures and people that are expecting the Cybertruck to be equivalent to a F150 gas car with a 36 gallon gas tank is not reality.

I sincerely hope the Cybertruck is not the equivalent of my F-150 with a 36 gallon tank. I'm trading it for a Cybertruck because the Cybertruck is far superior. I hate the F-150's gas-guzzling ways. ?

 

[HaulingAss]

Cell internal resistance goes up at lower temperatures, so more energy is wasted as heat. Of course, this warms the cell eventually, but there are losses from the cold initially. It’s less of a problem on longer drives, once the battery has warmed.

That may be true, but it's a very small effect. Most of the "range loss" you will see on the display when the battery is cold comes back as the waste heat is circulated through the pack. The waste heat comes from the power electronics (which are more efficient when cold), the motors and the computers (all three of which are liquid cooled).

Charging before you leave completely eliminates that small loss of range due to a cold battery because the battery won't be cold when you depart.

The point is, almost all of the range loss in cold weather is due to factors other than a cold battery and cabin heating is the big one. Even a heat pump can't change that fact if the weather is below freezing.

Actually, the real point is that cold weather doesn't cause any significant "struggle" if you have more range than you need and/or easy access to superchargers along your route.

The highest EV adoption rate in the world is in Norway! That would not be the case if EVs "struggled" in cold weather. It's a mischaracterization.

 

[HaulingAss]

Just curious, what is your issue with RJ and what business practices?

He won't tell you what's really on his mind. That's not very transparent, LOL!

 

[Crissa]

To me the philosophy of a 200 kWh battery pack is that it gives you enough juice to drive all day so that you don’t need to stop at a supercharger at all unless you’re towing. So the charging time doesn’t matter because after driving 500 miles you’ll stay someplace with a Level 2 charger and let it fill up all night

...But then how do you recharge such a large battery?

-Crissa

 

[HaulingAss]

There's a big difference between Open Source and stealing it. Open Source does NOT mean that it is free of use in any way that someone wants to us it.

And not everything is considered to be Open Source at Tesla. I'm sure that there are a LOT of sensitive pieces of information.

That's true. Very little of the information Rivian stole from Tesla was EV technology. Most of it was proprietary business plans and internal processes, the kinds of things a competitor could use to get a leg up.

Even the EV technology Tesla develops in-house is not published in real time for competitors to instantly use. Tesla get's the head start on it because they paid to develop it. Rivian just stole it before it was in actual Tesla products.

How this could be considered OK by anyone is beyond me.

 

[Fleetwood75]

...But then how do you recharge such a large battery?

-Crissa

Let’s say that driving at 65 mph in moderate weather you get about 2.5 miles per kWh. On a 200 kWh pack let’s say you push it and use 180 kWh that day, so you’ve covered 450 miles and it took you 7 hours plus one hour of stops none of which involved supercharging. That’s an 8 hour day on the road. You stay someplace that has a 240V, 48 amp charger. Stick it on that charger and you’ve recovered your 180 kWh in 16 hours. So if you spent 8 hours on the road every day and 16 hours on a Level 2 charger every night you could keep that cycle going indefinitely, covering 450 miles per day. A road trip from San Diego to Maine would take 7 days

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