Pointless Cybertruck mirrors!

Crissa

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Crissa, looks like you’ve never towed any real things, therefore, keep arguing. I am gonna kill this debate.
I have towed small things. I'm not saying I know better. I'm saying that I need more evidence as to why the mechanical solution is the better one here.

I just don't see what 'mirrors' have to do with the subject of towing. You need to see around the trailer. Cameras can do that from angles and accuracy that mirrors cannot.

-Crissa

 
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firsttruck

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FreightWorks Tech: MirrorEye Demo
Recently we had an on-site demonstration of the incredibly innovative MirrorEye Camera Monitor System by Stoneridge. MirrorEye is a new solution designed to fully replace traditional mirrors on Class 8 trucks with a combination of wide-angle cameras mounted outside the cab, and mirror-shaped screens mounted on the A-pillar inside the truck.
Dec 13, 2021
FreightWorks | Transportation & Logistics
FreightWorks delivers excellence with integrity. We are more than just another truckload carrier, we are delivering excellence.

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MirrorEye®: replace bus mirrors with a camera system With MirrorEye®, buses and coaches gain improved driver vision, blind spot elimination and fuel efficiency improvements.
Stoneridge l ORLACO
Jul 27, 2020


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Seeing the safety difference of camera monitor systems | FE Unscripted
Stoneridge’s MirrorEye camera monitor system was the first to have an FMCSA exemption that allows the manufacturer to remove the truck’s rear view mirrors and replacing them with a multitude of cameras, offering a boost in fuel efficiency thanks to improved aerodynamics in addition to improved safety through increased visibility.
Sep 10, 2021
Fleet Equipment

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jerhenderson

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Elon has said more than once that the current state of Federal law in the US requires them to deliver the car with side view mirrors but that same law does not require that the purchaser doesn't immediately remove them. It's perfgectly legal, in some states, to drive without sideview mirrors. And the side repeater cameras make that a viable option.
I'll be looking into that Canadian regulation when the time comes.
 

Tim.Luchenko

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Please watch this video and then explain to me how mirrors are better than cameras

Sorry to say that, but looks like one more guy that never towed. No practical experience....
This camera system is really cool, while you stay on the parking lot and have tons of time to play with views. It helps when you park, back up trailer. There is no doubt here. What about while you are towing on a freeway? There is no time to play with it. What you need is fast, really fast to take a look somewhere without being distracted and make sure everything is fine, no loose straps, your right front week is not touching a shoulder, and so on.
My point is cameras, especially nowadays, are super cool ADDITION to mirrors.
About MirrorEye. Has anyone of you used this system? Or have you just found some cool videos online(commercials)? I spoke with one driver who uses similar system (could be MirrorEye, I don't know) on the daily basis, he said that it is fantastic system!!! But not when you drive at night time it is completely opposite: In about two hours of darkness outside your eyes get tired of the screens (blue light), and there no way to turn them off - you must have ability to see around the truck. After 4-5 hours of driving at night time your eyes are burned out. They use rags to cover screens and take them off when they need to take a look at ‘the mirror’. When you deem them down you see nothing. How stupid it is!
 


Luke42

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Alas, 'impractical' it's not.

Motorcycles accelerate far more quickly than other vehicles. So letting them to the front of red light queues reduces overall traffic. Are you saying you don't have red lights?

Motorcycles sideswipe collisions are far less deadly, so allowing them to share lanes in heavy traffic, again, reduces overall traffic and traffic deaths. Are you saying you don't have freeways or suburban multilane roads?
I was never tempted to lane-split when I was riding, because I see a lot of drivers do stupid lane changes near traffic lights. I do not want to get mixed up with that.

In the environments in which I've ridden motorcycles (not California), the danger of being sideswiped by an oblivious driver doesn't even come close to outweighing benefits you're pointing to. Lane splitting is the states where I've held motorcycle licenses, which would be Virginia and Illinois, a big risk with a small reward.

Look, I'm not going to tell a bunch of Californians how they should run their state -- not my circus, not my monkeys. In a forum with a national and international audience, though, it's very strange to assume that the whole world should design vehicles to accommodate motorcycle riders between cars and ducking mirrors and occasionally kicking them to get a driver's attention. The fact that this even came up in the discussion shows exactly why lane-splitting is illegal in the rest of the United States. You just need to know that this is a California-only thing. Y'all do it your way, though!
 

Bill906

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What about while you are towing on a freeway?
Looks like another person who didn't watch the video. Watch specifically between ≈1:00 to 2:00.

Yes I have towed before, Boats, large trailers etc. I worked on my uncle's farm towing (and backing up) hay wagons. I understand the basics of towing. I really think you are very used to using mirrors and are unwilling or unable to adapt to a new way, even when it's superior in the most meaningful ways.

Note this view:

1668188273851.png


The driver can see both left and right side of the towing system in one view, all at once. With mirrors you'd have to look out at left mirror, guess the distance between vehicle and lane marker, then look out right mirror and compare it to what you remember you saw out left, adjust if needed, and repeat.
 

Crissa

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Sorry to say that, but looks like one more guy that never towed. No practical experience....
This camera system is really cool, while you stay on the parking lot and have tons of time to play with views. It helps when you park, back up trailer. There is no doubt here. What about while you are towing on a freeway? There is no time to play with it. What you need is fast, really fast to take a look somewhere without being distracted and make sure everything is fine, no loose straps, your right front week is not touching a shoulder, and so on.
My point is cameras, especially nowadays, are super cool ADDITION to mirrors.
About MirrorEye. Has anyone of you used this system? Or have you just found some cool videos online(commercials)? I spoke with one driver who uses similar system (could be MirrorEye, I don't know) on the daily basis, he said that it is fantastic system!!! But not when you drive at night time it is completely opposite: In about two hours of darkness outside your eyes get tired of the screens (blue light), and there no way to turn them off - you must have ability to see around the truck. After 4-5 hours of driving at night time your eyes are burned out. They use rags to cover screens and take them off when they need to take a look at ‘the mirror’. When you deem them down you see nothing. How stupid it is!
You keep saying 'play'. Why does anyone need to play with the settings while driving?

You said they cover their screens while driving. Why don't they cover the mirrors shining the other cars' lights in their eyes?

Again, it just sounds like an ergonomics issue, not a screen issue.

I was never tempted to lane-split when I was riding, because I see a lot of drivers do stupid lane changes near traffic lights. I do not want to get mixed up with that.
Filtering is passing stopped cars. Stopped cars can't hit you.

Most drivers try to let motorcycles through. They know it's against the law to block motorcycles from passing, and it's against the law to assault people including other motorists. Or they're just nice people and don't need to know those things.

California doesn't show any increased motorcycle collisions or injuries than other states - balancing for the climate and miles ridden. And it does show fewer rear-end collisions.

Filtering and splitting are legal worldwide. Its the rest of North America that's backwards and strange.

-Crissa
 

Luke42

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They know it's against the law to block motorcycles from passing
That's a California thing.

In Illinois and Virginia, motorcycles are treated like every other vehicle in terms of traffic rules and traffic flow.

I'm convinced that California knows how make rules for motorcycles that work within their driving environment.

I'm not convinced that Californians know better than Illinoisans about how to make to make driving rules for the Midwest. Driving out here is far more "chill" here than what I've experienced in California, and waiting for your turn in traffic is polite.

It's against the law to assault people including other motorists.
Thankfully, this one is an everywhere thing.
 

Luke42

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But again, that doesn't have anything to do with cameras. They can give more steady, brighter, clearer, and angles you cannot get from mirrors,

Cameras are straight up superior.
I could use some additional pixels and dynamic range on the Furrion camera on my camper.

The resolution, FOV, and dynamic range are all far lower than the really-good cameras on my Model Y.

Cameras can be extremely good, but the details of the implementation matter a lot.
 


Crissa

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I'm not convinced that Californians know better than Illinoisans about how to make to make driving rules for the Midwest. Driving out here is far more "chill" here than what I've experienced in California, and waiting for your turn in traffic is polite.
Notably, the areas in the world where you can't filter are much smaller than the areas (and population) of the world where you can.

Not being able to filter reduces the efficacy of motorcycles, and increases their danger to being hit in traffic. Which is probably why far fewer people choose them in those states.

Treating them 'as every other vehicle' is a problem - rules should fit the scale and emissions of each vehicle.

-Crissa
 

JBee

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When night driving I often dim the instruments to low and turn off the Nav screen because it reduces night vision. I even block the silly blue high beam light on the Kia because it is way to bright. (VW, Mercedes etc a much better)

I'm hoping the CT has a full night mode setting, where blue light is off, and it only uses red and green colours that doesn't destroy your night vision.

As for cameras as mirrors using screens, I seriously hope they have a blue light filter and dimmable night settings. Obviously an headlight auto dimming function is built in, but also a digital dynamic range compressor would help, in that dim objects would be brightened and bright objects (like street lights etc) would be dimmed giving a much more effective contrast range.

You could also augment the mirror screens with NIR and even low res FLIR (low res can be had for under $100 retail), even if they'd only add one for the rear/side looking. That would allow you to monitor wheel, tyre, brake and ground temperatures etc to optimising braking condition and traction calculations, and with a forward looking one give you better wildlife visibility and protection too.

But ultimately there must be a better way to integrate overall situational awareness than just adding synthetic digital mirrors. They are just displays so why not have them configurable for different driving modes and show more relevant info?

Perhaps FSD vision and occupancy maps can be displayed in the mirror screens as well, but done as to just augment the natural picture with red lines to highlight proximity? You could then add rear traffic monitoring as well, for example on German autobahns having an indicator to say how fast someone is approaching in the overtaking lane would be a great safety feature, especially with traffic approaching at 120mph. For reversing you could even add predictive steering arc lines to the mirror screens, and do the same for the trailer too.

Another thing is that the mirror cameras really need to be on pull out extendable stalks, so you can pull them out to the width of the trailer, so you can see down the side of the trailer. Some sort of unsecured load warning could also be implemented.

You could also upgrade the camp mode to include bear or wildlife alarms, even proximity intrusion detection etc. Note most of these could be OTA updates later on, except the FLIR and camera stalks.
 
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HaulingAss

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The whole idea of "Real mirrors are necessary to tow real loads" reminds me of many other examples of people not wanting to change the old way of doing things when better ways exist:

Seatbelts - I don't want to be trapped in my vehicle if I drive into water. It's not safe, I need to be anble to exit easily.

Anti-lock brakes: I don't want a computer deciding how much stopping force I'm applying, I want to be able to lock up my wheels if I want. Anti-lock brakes are an accident waiting to happen.

Radials: I drive a truck and tow trailers, I need real bias-ply tires to control trailer sway and handle heavy loads.

Electric cars: I need a gas engine to provide the kind of power I need to accelerate into freeway traffic. An EV would be dangerous merging onto the fast freeways I drive onto. EV's will never replace gas cars.

Fuel injection: If I can't fix it, I don't want it. I know how to change my jetting if I need to drive over high passes and EFI will always be less reliable. No way could i ever buy a car or truck with EFI.
 

Crissa

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The whole idea of "Real mirrors are necessary to tow real loads" reminds me of many other examples of people not wanting to change the old way of doing things when better ways exist:

Seatbelts - I don't want to be trapped in my vehicle if I drive into water. It's not safe, I need to be anble to exit easily.

Anti-lock brakes: I don't want a computer deciding how much stopping force I'm applying, I want to be able to lock up my wheels if I want. Anti-lock brakes are an accident waiting to happen.

Radials: I drive a truck and tow trailers, I need real bias-ply tires to control trailer sway and handle heavy loads.

Electric cars: I need a gas engine to provide the kind of power I need to accelerate into freeway traffic. An EV would be dangerous merging onto the fast freeways I drive onto. EV's will never replace gas cars.

Fuel injection: If I can't fix it, I don't want it. I know how to change my jetting if I need to drive over high passes and EFI will always be less reliable. No way could i ever buy a car or truck with EFI.
I have literally heard every single one of these since I learned to drive.

-Crissa

 

 
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