Towing Capacity and Range?

Ogre

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I’m gonna tow a Rivian in regen mode with my Cybertruck, and then switch when the battery gets low. Free electricity!!
They have that box thing which provides limitless power. But you can’t open it up, plug anything into it, or measure it’s power output.

Maybe that’s why the power is limitless… you can’t tap into it.

Anyhow. If you had one of those on your Cybertruck you would limitless power…
 

charliemagpie

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Here goes nothing again..

Battery management plays a part, the tabless design generates less heat, the chemistry plays a part. The air dynamic design plays a part.

Little secrets play a part.

I am convinced, Elon would not quote a 500 PLUS mile range and 14,000 towing capacity and then say...

or BTW, Sorry about that Chief !!!, If you tow 14,000lb you can only go 200 miles.

Maybe call it faith, but I don't think it's blind.

Technically, I think we need to account for, and give credit to, Tesla's ability to improve beyond incremental.
 

Ogre

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I am convinced, Elon would not quote a 500 PLUS mile range and 14,000 towing capacity and then say...

or BTW, Sorry about that Chief !!!, If you tow 14,000lb you can only go 200 miles.
If the truck has a 500 mile range, towing it is going to reduce that range. That’s just how physics works.

A truck which can tow a 14,000 pound load 500 miles is likely to have a 700+ mile unloaded range. That isn’t going to happen. Not with this generation anyhow.
 

charliemagpie

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Yes, of course towing will have an effect on range, I don't expect it to be dire.

On Youtube, similar to Rivian, the model X's range is greatly compromised.

But these batteries were adapted for towing. Great if you wanted to cruise around, but if you have a serious need to tow, you wouldn't buy one. (apart from the exception)

The CT will have batteries suited for the job.

I expect reduced range to be closer to ICE than RIVIAN.
 


JBee

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Yes, of course towing will have an effect on range, I don't expect it to be dire.

On Youtube, similar to Rivian, the model X's range is greatly compromised.

But these batteries were adapted for towing. Great if you wanted to cruise around, but if you have a serious need to tow, you wouldn't buy one. (apart from the exception)

The CT will have batteries suited for the job.

I expect reduced range to be closer to ICE than RIVIAN.
I get what you are trying to say and I mostly agree that the 4680, if built as predicted, will have better overall performance.

But if the stated battery capacity is "x" kWh then that will be the amount of energy it has to use, regardless of what type of battery is installed in there, or if it's a rubber band or elves with the same energy capacity.

According to ABRP real world consumption is expected as follows: https://abetterrouteplanner.com/

If a CT had a 135kWh 4680 pack that "x" kWh battery capacity equals roughly
135,000Wh ÷ 314Wh/km for the CT, so 429km of range. (268Miles)

The Rivian is 297Wh/km @110km/h on a 135kWh pack so;
135kWh ÷ 297Wh/km = 454km (280miles)

The Ford Lightning is 321Wh/km with a 131kWh pack so;
131kWh ÷ 321Wh/km = 408km (255miles)
(Which Like the CT is actually better than a Rivian given the CT/F150 is a bigger vehicle)

Now if we add the same trailer to each and assume 250Wh/km extra we get:
CT: 564Wh/km and 239km range (149miles)
Rivian: 547Wh/km and 246km range (154miles)
Ford: 571Wh/km and 229km range (143miles)

(CT3 200kWh Battery, 636km by itself and 354km with trailer)

If the CT uses more than the Rivian as predicted by ABRP, then if the CT and Rivian have the same size packs, then adding a trailer will make the Rivian have more range, not less. Note that this is "despite" that the CT might be more efficient overall, it is however also bigger, which simply needs more energy to move. If we take the towing weight into consideration, it could actually get worse again. This is not a failure of the CT, it is simply because the trailers are so bad in their current form.

In the case of a ICE this calculation is not at all in the same ballpark seeing that 1 liter of fuel is roughly 11kWh of energy, so a 100 liter fuel tank would be a whopping 1100kWh. Now that's not the full story though, in that ICE are operating around 20-30% efficiency, but with a diesel this goes up to 40%, meaning it's like having a 440kWh pack of energy available for towing. This means it's still twice the energy capacity as the 200kWh pack expected to go in the CT TM. That is why ICE still has an advantage whilst towing, simply because of the energy density of fuel. My Landcruiser had 180l, so nearly twice that again! Also consider how much would a 440kWh battery weigh in comparison to 100liters of fuel? . This also affects range.
 
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charliemagpie

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Wh / Km doesn't discriminate for efficiency of the engine, efficiency in regen, and or hasn't accounted for a particular new battery chemistry and design.
It hasn't accounted for the BMS in such a new battery. It hasn't accounted for little secrets companies keep.

LED bulbs use more than 75% less energy than incandescent lighting. Yet illuminate the same area. Prior to the invention of LED, we could have followed the same argument. What is the illumination per WH ? Its physics.

The
chemistry
format
BMS
motors
AI
etc
of the CT will set new understandings for Wh per km.

IMO
 

JBee

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Wh / Km doesn't discriminate for efficiency of the engine, efficiency in regen, and or hasn't accounted for a particular new battery chemistry and design.
It hasn't accounted for the BMS in such a new battery. It hasn't accounted for little secrets companies keep.

LED bulbs use more than 75% less energy than incandescent lighting. Yet illuminate the same area. Prior to the invention of LED, we could have followed the same argument. What is the illumination per WH ? Its physics.

The
chemistry
format
BMS
motors
AI
etc
of the CT will set new understandings for Wh per km.

IMO
Sorry can't agree with you on that one. kWh is a measurement unit of energy and doesn't care if it comes from cotton balls or lightning strikes. :)

I agree all those things will improve battery performance, but all of those will represent an improvement in range, which in turn is all represented in a Wh/km measurement.

Regardless, adding a trailer will always use more, unless the pulling vehicle aero is significantly improved by adding a trailer, that is possible, but very unlikely to ever be the case.
 

Throwcomputer

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LED bulbs use more than 75% less energy than incandescent lighting. Yet illuminate the same area. Prior to the invention of LED, we could have followed the same argument. What is the illumination per WH ? Its physics.
Measurement of light (lumens), does not have the same physical resistance that exists on movement of objects in space (force) does to overcome in order to translate to equivalent distance traveled of force in lumens (brightness). Therefore energy consumed to create that brightness doesn't correlate in the same way due to how a light beam is generated and travels through space. So its not an accurate 1:1 comparison to make.

Plus what JBee said about all those improvements in battery tech you mentioned ultimately cannot not be included in Wh/Km measurements.

4680's will definitely provide range improvements.. but the Wh/Km figures we are being told already include those battery tech improvements. Smaller weight battery packs move heavier objects (CT) similar range distance. Their range estimates were given based on 4680 batteries.. not older battery packs in the CT. Now throw those 4680s into the same weight object (MY or M3) and yeah you will see drastic range improvements compared to older battery tech that currently exists in them because the battery packs weigh less and contain more energy.
 
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JBee

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Edison never actually invented the light bulb, he actually invented a resitive heater that just happened to produce some light as well... his marketing team done the rest ;)
 
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Crissa

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LED bulbs use more than 75% less energy than incandescent lighting. Yet illuminate the same area. Prior to the invention of LED, we could have followed the same argument. What is the illumination per WH ? Its physics.
That's why my Zero motorcycle gets 300 Mpge compared to my spouse's 50 Mpg Ducati. We don't have significantly different aero. A Cybertruck Is likely to get 80 Mpge vs an F150's 20 mpg (and a Lightning's 68 Mpge).

That won't change the fact that towing a big brick takes alot of energy. Which will halve (or whatever, depending upon the relative change in aerodynamics) the efficiency of the truck.

-Crissa
 
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I'm not planning to do distance towing and CT will be good for my needs, a bed, good charging curve (presumably), can seat six around town and seats 4 comfortably for long trips and will have Autopilot. Just reading the forums and it is pretty clear that quite a few people talk about towing and based on their comments they haven't towed and underestimate the time to drop and hook large trailers. It will also be interesting to see if Tesla breaks with their other cars and puts the charge port on the front which would allow charging without dropping the trailer in some of the superchargers I've been to.
I have noticed the "towing dismissal" that gets applied to my questions and statements too. Towing is a necessity occasionally even with an eight foot cargo bed. I have towed trailers behind my trucks before, including car hauling. I have never enjoyed the process. At least one of these times I have had to tow my own truck home from hours away after a head gasket breach blew the top off of my radiator. Towing is a necessity. Towing sucks!
 

Ogre

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Towing is likely one of those weird situations where slow is slow and fast is even slower.

Keeping your speed at 55 MPH the whole time is likely to reduce the number of stops significantly. This is true with ICE vehicles, but trebly true with EVs. On climbs go even slower; it is perfectly acceptable to do 50MPH on climbs if there is a passing lane.

The fact that there is uncertainty and likely delays finding the spots where you can pull into stalls makes efficient driving trebly important. If you can skip a charge stop where you would have to unhitch, you end up 20 miles further down the road. That easily makes up for the slower driving.
 

JBee

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Towing is likely one of those weird situations where slow is slow and fast is even slower.

Keeping your speed at 55 MPH the whole time is likely to reduce the number of stops significantly. This is true with ICE vehicles, but trebly true with EVs. On climbs go even slower; it is perfectly acceptable to do 50MPH on climbs if there is a passing lane.

The fact that there is uncertainty and likely delays finding the spots where you can pull into stalls makes efficient driving trebly important. If you can skip a charge stop where you would have to unhitch, you end up 20 miles further down the road. That easily makes up for the slower driving.
Thats actually true for any vehicle, but especially for efficient EVs that normally travel over 35kmh on smooth roads, simply because drag increases by the square of velocity. If you double the speed you quadruple the power required.

In my experience with ICE vehicles best range is achieved around 40-60kmh (25-40mph) because this is just above ICE idle speed and lowest rpm that can be sustained in the highest gear.

With EV's its different though because of the large flat torque curve and single speed that does not have a minimum RPM. So I'd expect the max range speed to be more flexible to the point the slower you go the further you go, until you are out of aero drag and rolling resistance becomes the main factor. Typically pack capacity is also better with lower current draw as well, so you actually get more energy out of the pack too. Not sure how much but it will be more, so long your A/C isn't running, and is using more than it takes to push the car along!

It would be interesting if someone with a EV could try this out for funsies over a short repetitive track at similar conditions.

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