TSLA Took a big dump today! WOW!

Crissa

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There's long been rumors of how there is a big Chinese cartel controlling bitcoin, and this has been a pretty huge proof of concept for it.

Ouch. No wonder Tesla halted their bitcoin trades.

-Crissa
 

checho

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It is not the opposite to stop accepting Bitcoin. Doge ≠ Bitcoin.

-Crissa
It is the opposite they are both crypto coins and in theory are supposed to serve the same purpose, being Dogecoin more inflationary than Bitcoin, the only difference is Dogecoin is better suited for small or tiny transactions, and Bitcoin being the more secure network and suited for larger transactions.
Tesla after getting confirmation from a survey that people wanted Dogecoin acceptance he eliminates the only crypto currency that was being accepted, not only Bitcoin stops being accepted, Dogecoin is also not accepted, in other words people wanted crypto acceptance and crypto gets eliminated as a form of payment.
But the Petro Dollar the most dirty currency is accepted.

Both use the same amount of energy since both coins are POW (proof of work) the only difference is the mining algorithm sha256 for Bitcoin and scrypt for dogecoin, and any miner can tell you they use about the same amount of electric energy.

The Bitcoin market cap is 936 Billion dollars, the Dogecoin market cap is 70 Billion usd, over 13 times higher, and because of the fact that the Bitcoin is worth a lot more there is more mining incentive creating a more secure network than Dodgecoin, and because the Bitcoin mining network is much larger, Bitcoin uses more energy but not because of being less efficient, and Tesla accepting or not accepting Bitcoin does not change the amount of energy the miners use, and the wallets use an insignificant amount of energy since they run off usb ports, cell phones, or personal computers.

But Dogecoin is not more efficient or less efficient than Bitcoin they are very similar since both are pow.
 

checho

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There's long been rumors of how there is a big Chinese cartel controlling bitcoin, and this has been a pretty huge proof of concept for it.

Ouch. No wonder Tesla halted their bitcoin trades.

-Crissa
Bitcoin is a very clean form of money, not the cleanest but certainly cleaner than the dollar, here is a link:
https://bart.vanmaarseveen.net/bitcoin-as-energy-saver/

Costliness of money (annually):
Gold Mining: $105B
Paper Currency and Minting: $28B
Banking System: $1,870B
Governments: $27,600B
Bitcoin Mining: $4.5B

Bitcoin Mining costs annually $4.5B USD vs the Banking System $1870 B USD, Bitcoin uses 415 times less energy than the traditional banking system, it is much less than 1%, it is about 0.25%, someone could argue that the banking system has more transactions, but the bitcoin mining operations do not depend on the number of transactions, and if the lightning network takes off it will handle more transactions than the current banking system at a much higher efficiency rate.

As it can be seen Bitcoin is much cleaner than the petro dollar.
 

Crissa

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Ookay, clearly you're devoted to crypto misinformation, checho. Have you compared how many transactions for US currency might sorta be why?

US currency is used the world round, but in the US, about 33 billion dollars are spent by people. This doesn't count government or banking industry transactions.

-Crissa

Edit: said trillion when I meant billion. I was up a bit too late. Bitcoin only has a few hundred thousand transactions per month.
 
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checho

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Ookay, clearly you're devoted to crypto misinformation, checho. Have you compared how many transactions for US currency might sorta be why?

US currency is used the world round, but in the US, about 33 trillion dollars are spent by people. This doesn't count government or banking industry transactions.

-Crissa
If you look at this link:
https://fiatmarketcap.com/

USA total market cap 400,740,441 BTC
Bitcoin total market cap 18,709,712 BTC

The USD market cap is 21.4 times larger than the Bitcoin market cap, so even taking into consideration the fact that the dollar has a much larger market cap than Bitcoin, Bitcoin still comes out to be cleaner. since it uses 415 times less energy but it is only 21.4 times smaller than the dollar.

Also need to consider that Bitcoin and all cryptos are in their infancy, Bitcoin being the oldest of them all it is only 12 years old, and at the rate it growing in value soon it will be a world reserve currency, it will be more valuable than the dollar in less than 10 years.
Bitcoin values
1 cent on 2009
1 dollar on 2011
50000 on 2021

This growth is exponential expect Bitcoin to be bigger than the dollar before the end of the decade by the simple fact that it is sound money, not perfect, but much better than the dollar and cleaner.

Other fact in Bitcoin the number of transactions does not depend on the amount of mining, the mining is done to secure the network, as value goes up so does the mining, like in a traditional bank the more money it has the more security it is needed.

Therefore based on data available we can conclude that Bitcoin even taking into consideration its market cap it is much cleaner than the dollar.
 

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Yes, most likely that is the case, but that is most likely due to Tesla ditching crypto. Both could be going up if Elon was not ditching crypto, a lot of crypto holders now will not be able to buy Tesla and may have decided to ditch Tesla after getting stabbed in the back. Its better to have friends than enemies. Many people lost money by trusting Elon on the purchase on Dogecoin which is not a serious investment.
Can you explain what you mean when you say, "Many people lost money by trusting Elon on the purchase on Dogecoin"?

What?

Elon never said Dogecoin was a good investment. What are you talking about?

Also, Tesla isn't "ditching crypto", in fact Elon said Tesla would NOT be selling any of their Bitcoin. I'm not a cryptocurrency bug, I don't own any and I have no plans to buy any but I don't like to see such misrepresentations of what Elon has actually said.
 

checho

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Almost 20% of those bitcoin can never be claimed. So their value really shouldn't be counted.

I'm sorry you want to defend something that is so out of scale as to be immeasurable.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/881541/bitcoin-energy-consumption-transaction-comparison-visa/

-Crissa
The chart from statista has one huge flaw it compares only the primary Bitcoin chain to all visa transactions, and we all know VISA has transactions small as a few dollars, for the comparison to be fair the secondary Bitcoin chain called lightning would need to be included, since lightning is used for small transactions.

In the FIAT world people also lose their currency, it is not only on the crypto world.
Many people have lost dollar bills, some have been destroyed due to floods or fires.

We do not know exact figures but people have lost money both in FIAT and on crypto.

In the case of crypto, the lost crypto becomes a lottery even though an extremely difficult lottery to win.

The 900KW per Bitcoin transaction does not seem correct.

on the Bitcoin primary chain you have 220 Million transactions on average a year.

A modern miner uses 30W for each Terahash, the current hash rate is 150 E
Exahash 1x10^18 hashes
Terahash 1x10^12 hashes

150E is 150 x 10^6 Terahash

150 x 10^6 x30watts we get 4500 x10^6 watts divided by 220x10^6 transactions in a year x 24 x 365 we get 180Kw per transaction on the primary chain alone.

Using common sense an average bitcoin transaction costs 6 dollars, it would be impossible to cost 900KW in energy, even a 1 cent per KW, 900 KW would be 9 dollars, and miners need to profit otherwise they would not be mining.

But there is also a secondary chain called the lightning network which can handle millions of transactions per second, if we include the lightning network then Bitcoin transactions are no longer expensive.

On the traditional banking system sending a wire costs about $100 and there are limits on the amount of currency that can be sent, with Bitcoin it would cost about $6 and if we compare how long the wire takes it would be fair to compare it to a Bitcoin fee of $1.

Bitcoin may not be the most efficient, however it is much cleaner than the traditional system.

Also Bitcoin for being a monetary system is very new only 12 years old and over time it will improve.
 

Crissa

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The chart from statista has one huge flaw it compares only the primary Bitcoin chain to all visa transactions, and we all know VISA has transactions small as a few dollars, for the comparison to be fair the...
...Doesn't make bitcoin better, because the secondary chain uses the same or more energy as VISA. And there aren't so many transactions, either, because of the difficulty. And aren't blockchain, so they don't really count, do they?

-Crissa
 

checho

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...Doesn't make bitcoin better, because the secondary chain uses the same or more energy as VISA. And there aren't so many transactions, either, because of the difficulty. And aren't blockchain, so they don't really count, do they?

-Crissa
No, the secondary chain uses nodes not miners, nodes use very little energy, for example a raspbery pi can be a node.

Therefore the secondary chain uses much less energy than Visa.
The difficulty in mining does not apply to the secondary chain it is for the primary chain only.

I am not an expert on lightning since it is fairly new but this is how it works.
Lets say a vendor is selling a $5 product, it would not make sense to sell it on Bitcoin primary network due to high transaction fees, so he sells it on the lightning network.

The lightning networks creates channels and bundles many Bitcoin transactions of the secondary chain into a single Bitcoin primary chain transaction. So yes all the transactions go on the Bitcoin blockchain, the difference is that in lightning it is when the channel is closed.

The secondary chain may not be a blockchain someone that knows lightning better than me can explain what type of chain it is, but many transactions are bundled into single Bitcoin transactions which do go in the primary chain.

The advantage is that millions of transactions per second can be achieve without any significant additional energy it uses nodes but nodes use very little electric energy about 4W per hour in case of a raspberry pi, vs a miner 1500W to 4000W per hour, the intended purpose is smaller transactions that do not require a high degree of security.

Also if the Bitcoin block were to be increased in size from 1MB to 2MB it can double the number of transactions on the primary chain without any additional energy, the problem of big blocks is that the database can get huge and it is already huge.

Lightning is already in production, but for it to take off big time it needs to be made easy to use, there are many lightning wallets and they differ a lot, eventually they will be made easy to use for the average person and then lightning could get very popular. Lightning does not have a limit on the number of transactions making Bitcoin and any other crypto that uses lightning very efficient in energy usage.
 

Crissa

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Nodes don't exist without miners.

You're trying to blame USD on the printing cost for physical transactions that don't use physical dollars while subtracting the mining cost from bitcoin and then handwaving over the node cost.

No, a bitcoin peer system doesn't used as little energy as a server and authority system. Literally the strings the peer system handles are longer, and then it does more calculation on them.

-Crissa
 

checho

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Nodes don't exist without miners.

You're trying to blame USD on the printing cost for physical transactions that don't use physical dollars while subtracting the mining cost from bitcoin and then handwaving over the node cost.

No, a bitcoin peer system doesn't used as little energy as a server and authority system. Literally the strings the peer system handles are longer, and then it does more calculation on them.

-Crissa
Nodes do not require miners, you can download the bitcoin core desktop wallet and run a node without the need to set up a miner, and to setup a miner you do not need to run a node.

The Bitcoin primary chain does require both miners and nodes, but they work completely independent of each other.

Miners are not involved in the lightning network since they are off chain transactions, here is a link explaining that:
https://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/69128/how-does-the-lightning-network-affect-miners

Lightning has several synonyms to say the same, off chain, secondary chain, lightning.
Lightning only uses nodes not miners, therefore it is very energy efficient, the miners are only for the primary bitcoin network (blockchain).

I am not blaming anything only stating the facts that the petro dollar is much less efficient than Bitcoin even when taking into consideration the number of transactions, as I have shown with links providing the source of the data.

If you want a really clean network then there is pos (proof of stake), but there are trade offs, main trade off is that most top market cryptos are all POS, POS has been much better tested in real world conditions than POS, but that does not mean POS would not work.

But for POW, all POW cryptos are similar in in energy usage, but traditional banking is much less efficient, not only that but it makes you depend on a third party.

Dogecoin is also POW (proof of work).

From most efficient to least efficient
POS -> POW -> FIAT
 

Crissa

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Checho, your statements are just straight up empirically wrong, and I'm tired of engaging your off-topic rants.

You assert facts, and then don't bother to prove them. Then you want to eat your cake and not pay for the bakers.

It's nonsense.

Fiat currency has nothing to do with its efficiency yet you say it does. You want to count sub-banks as more efficient when they're not unique or even part cryptocurrency - they're a small central authority clearinghouse just like any other bank dealing in fragments of any other currency within their bank.

It's just nonsense and I'm done with poking holes and you answering questions no one asked and raising straw arguments to knock down with empty evidence.

-Crissa
 

checho

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Checho, your statements are just straight up empirically wrong, and I'm tired of engaging your off-topic rants.

You assert facts, and then don't bother to prove them. Then you want to eat your cake and not pay for the bakers.

It's nonsense.

Fiat currency has nothing to do with its efficiency yet you say it does. You want to count sub-banks as more efficient when they're not unique or even part cryptocurrency - they're a small central authority clearinghouse just like any other bank dealing in fragments of any other currency within their bank.

It's just nonsense and I'm done with poking holes and you answering questions no one asked and raising straw arguments to knock down with empty evidence.

-Crissa
I provided the links to the sources, facts are facts.

"FIAT currency has nothing to do with efficiency" true that is why it is so inefficient it is by government and mandatory does not need to compete, that is why it is so inefficient.

It is like cars in the 1900 there was no concern for efficiency, if it run it was good then things change, but that does not mean the efficiency could not be measured.

Todays FIAT currency are extremely inefficient, shopping down of trees, big tall building that are funded with taxpayers money (bailouts), money transport carries, petro dollar deals that are enforce by war (Irak, Aganishtan, Venezuela), huge vaults, etc. Bitcoin on the other hand is for the people by the people, no politics involved, no big buildings, no trees are sacrificed, no inflation tax, and when we compare the electric usage of FIAT vs crypto, crypto comes out ahead specially if we add the lightning network.
 
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