Vehicle to Home (Ford Figured it Out)

[Pappy]

My county inspector thinks it is up to me as does the NFPA, the insurance companies and the courts. Violate the law and code at your own risk. You can fiercely proclaim your beliefs from the dock.

Remove conductors from a panel? It is much, much easier to throw a legal, safe, code complient transfer switch or, better yet, let an automatic one throw itself.

Young feller, one thing I’ve learned about you is; you just like to argue with anybody, about any subject. Your about as close to a troll as it comes. Your train of thought on this subject matter is gonna get you killed. I survived 35 years underground certified low, medium and high voltage by NOT depending on somebody else nor some automatic transfer/disconnect switch. Obviously you haven’t seen these devices welded together and failed to open as designed. How bout we stop this nonsense and get back to what this forum is all about, Cybertrucks!!!!!

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[rr6013]

Shutting down solar arrays simply enables Grid energy consumption and that throws a line to carbon-fuel life extension beyond what it deserves.

Bundling aligns Elon’s goal of decarbonization with Tesla priorities and supports a Solar City product-first over a cannibalization effect for every Tesla Powerwall sold w/o panels.

Selling Powerwall with Solar City panels I support even though it ends any planned purchase of battery over solar panels to charge CT at cheap off-peak rates. Bundling Powerwall more effectively addresses de-carbonization. It was totally counterproductive to have solar panels not contributing energy 100% of the time. Powerwall enables 100% utility.

The selling of Powerwalls w/o solar panels was extending Grid depenency on a carbon-fueled energy source. It made no sense at the end of the day to make carbon energy any cheaper promoting its off-peak consumption and starving your own customers who need Powerwalls that can’t get them.

 

[ajdelange]

Well I know I shouldn't but sometimes the temptation is just too great for example when someone writes....

How bout we stop this nonsense and get back to what this forum is all about, Cybertrucks!!!!!

...in a thread entitled "Vehicle to Home (Ford Figured it Out)"

Further to this, of course, is that what is being discussed is V2H which the Cybertruck does not have currently, as far as we know, but in which there is great interest in the Cybertruck community, hence this post.

The main reason I engage people like you at all is because you are implying that you know better than those fools at the NFPA and that it is allowable and perhaps even safer to ignore their rules and do things the way you think they should be done. Many of the people here don't know anything about any of this and some may think you are right. That's dangerous. I think the administrators should remove any posts of this nature and have requested that they do so a couple of times. They have never done so, though,

Obviously you haven’t seen these devices welded together and failed to open as designed.

Obviously, you have never seen one of these devices. If the switch welds (and yes, I've seen plenty of welded contact pairs) the switch does not throw and the backup source cannot connect. That's part of the design. The backup cannot be connected to the utility, nor in the case of welded contacts, even to the load. A disconnect that cannot, in fact, disconnect under conditions that occur with more than evanescent probability is not a properly designed device. The transfer switches used in home and commercial applications are properly designed and are tested and certified by independent laboratories and that is how they get approved by NEC. To suggest otherwise only advertises your ignorance of such devices and their application.

Young feller...

Though it pains me, I fear that with respect to full disclosure, I must strongly disagree with this.

 

[fritter63]

We planned to use panels from another manufacturer with IQ-7 microinverters. I really love these microinverters as they allow the system to track the sun without motors etc. They are an essential part of the solar system I have on the main house as it was built without any though to solar collection.

I've had the original gen-1 Enphase inverters (M190) since 2010 and recently upgraded them all (43) to the iq-7. And I have no idea what you mean by "allow the system to track the sun without motors". There is no movement of the panels involved at all. In fact I manually tilt my pole mounted panels twice a year at the equinoxes. All the micro inverters do is isolate each panel from the shading effects of others, so that your overall output isn't affected by shade on a single panel (as it is with a large single inverter setup)

all Enphase inverters (and all inverters), by regulation, are built to not output power if there is no load on from the grid. This is how they insure that grid connected systems don't backfeed when the power is out.The powerwall installations include a "gateway" box which automatically isolates you from the grid when the power is out, and then the Powerwalls provide that load that keeps the inverters working if it's sunny.

 

[ajdelange]

I've had the original gen-1 Enphase inverters (M190) since 2010 and recently upgraded them all (43) to the iq-7. And I have no idea what you mean by "allow the system to track the sun without motors". There is no movement of the panels involved at all.

That's the beauty of the system. Let's say I have a house with a ridgeline that runs north south. Thus one roof facet faces east and one west. Not ideal for solar!. But I install panels anyway. When the sun rises in the morning the east facing panels get it and each, equipped with IQ-7s with MPP, extracts as much pawer as it can given the amount of sunlight falling on it. The west facing panels get very little. The east panels carry the load in the AM. At noon the sun shines equally on the east and west facets but in neither case is it direct, full sun because of the orientation of those facets. Nevertheless each panel of each facet produces as much electricity as it can and the output of the two combined while perhaps not producing as much as one facet pointed south, produce almost as much as that optimum case. The afternoon is, of course, the same as the morning except that the west facing panels now shoulder the majority of the load. Thus the system sort of follows the sun around without anything moving physically.

I have 97 panels over 6 facets (old house that has been added on to). Under cloudless skies near the solstice and near apparent solar noon they have produced power slightly greater than the sum of the output for the 97 inverters.

In fact I manually tilt my pole mounted panels twice a year at the equinoxes.

I can't do that but could I think I'd do it a month and a half after the equinoxes.

ll the micro inverters do is isolate each panel from the shading effects of others, so that your overall output isn't affected by shade on a single panel (as it is with a large single inverter setup)

Each IQ-7 is an independent solar system which will push as much current as it can, given, current insolation level, into the house/grid. If a tree shades part, or all, of a panel that panel will continue to produce as much as it can under the circumstances.

all Enphase inverters (and all inverters), by regulation, are built to not output power if there is no load on from the grid.

The IQ-7 (and other) inverters measure grid frequency,voltage and phase. If frequency or voltage are out of limits the grid is assumed missing and the IQ-7 shuts down.

The powerwall installations include a "gateway" box which automatically isolates you from the grid when the power is out, and then the Powerwalls provide that load that keeps the inverters working if it's sunny.

The gateway is the transfer switch in a solar/Powerwall system. It measures utility parameters and if it finds them out of spec it opens the contactor that connects the utility to the house. The Powerwalls now feed the house and clock the IQ-7s (or whatever inverter you have connected). Excess power (not used by the house) charges the Powerall(s). When they near full the Powerwalls "curtails" PV production by changing the clock frequency.

In an off grid installation the gateway upon sensing that the Powerwalls are getting low, starts the standby generator and closes its contactor to connect it to the bus.

 

[ajdelange]

Shutting down solar arrays simply enables Grid energy consumption and that throws a line to carbon-fuel life extension beyond what it deserves.

Sorry. I don't understand.

Bundling aligns Elon’s goal of decarbonization with Tesla priorities and supports a Solar City product-first over a cannibalization effect for every Tesla Powerwall sold w/o panels.

If you mean that forcing people who want Powerwalls to buy Tesla panels and inverters promotes the sales of Tesla products over those of other manufacturers then yes, I think that's what he is up to. There is tremendous demand for Powerwalls. Storage is the missing link in renewable energy. There is not, AFAIK, tremendous demand for Tesla panels or inverters. Musk definitely wants to expand the company's involvement in the solar market.

There are other battery manufacturers. Enphase has something and Generac has a system. The Generac system can combine modules to yield up to 36 kWh of storage and 11 kW load. Five Powerwalls will give 65 kWh of storage and 45 kW peak load handling. Systems of more than 5 PW are possible if you are willing to spend the money (which is substantial). Thus it appears that Tesla owns the storage market for the moment. If you want 60 kWh storage it looks as if you have to go to Tesla. If you have to buy their panels to get that storage - well so be it.

Selling Powerwall with Solar City panels I support

As a staunch capitalist I have to support it too. As a guy trying to pull a system together I'm not so sanguine.

..even though it ends any planned purchase of battery over solar panels to charge CT at cheap off-peak rates.

The rates obtained by charging your CT from solar are much less than those from storing off peak power. Solar charging is free. I am charging my X for nothing now with solar. At this time I do not have batteries. An investment in solar is a better investment than a battery sans solar unless your utility pays you to store energy for them.

Bundling Powerwall more effectively addresses de-carbonization. It was totally counterproductive to have solar panels not contributing energy 100% of the time. Powerwall enables 100% utility.

I am again a little unclear about what you are saying here. Powerwalls do not enable you to store all the solar energy available. When the power wall approaches fill charge it turns the PV off. And it is not counterproductive to produce more solar than you use. The Utility is like a big battery. The excess solar I generate goes right to my neighbors and I get a credit for it. Every watt of solar I send to the utility is a watt they don't generate and a few grams of CO2 they don't produce.

It made no sense at the end of the day to make carbon energy any cheaper promoting its off-peak consumption and starving your own customers who need Powerwalls that can’t get them.

It is beneficial to the customer and reduces CO2 emission. But there is indeed no way it reduces it, by itself, as much as a system with a battery and solar. I'd believe Elon is doing it for the good of mankind more if the deal was that you had to have a solar system. But given that is has to be a Solar City solar system my natural cynicism, born of long TOE, prevails.

 

[firsttruck]

The F-150 Lightning reveal was very misleading.

A. The official home backup power requires the 80A Ford Charge Station Pro with Ford Intelligent Backup.

B. 80A Ford Charge Station Pro with Ford Intelligent Backup is not included with $40K base/commercial model or even $52K XLT model.

C. The price to buy option for these lower models will probably be high.

D. When charging the truck, most will not get the super fast 80A charge rate because most houses do not have spare 80A capacity. Many houses only have total of 100A for the entire house.

E: Installation of 80A circuit should be installed by licensed electrician & might require permits with city. Because of need for automatic transfer switch/grid disconnect & 80A circuit even the less complicated installs will probably cost at least $1,000 (parts & labor). Cost could easily be $1,000s more if need upgraded service line from electric provider.

F. Even if you get the 80A Ford Charge Station Pro with Ford Intelligent Backup you should still have at least a small stationary battery at the home (ie powerwall). Unless there is only one person using the home & truck, you would have other people that might be occupying the home when the truck is NOT home. Also if you have refrigeration & large freezer for food you probably want permanent battery to keep food from spoiling if power goes out when truck is away. This permanent stationary battery is another added expense most people might not realize they will need.
Also if you do not have a per

G. The $40K base/commercial model or even $52K XLT model do not get high power version of Pro Power Onboard. These low models do not get any high power 220V outlets. Only 120V outlets. Might not even be able to get as individual option. Might have to upgrade to full higher trim level ( Lariat and Platinum ).

source of some info:
https://insideevs.com/news/508802/ford-f150-lightning-outlets-backup/

https://media.ford.com/content/ford...1/05/24/all-electric-f-150-lightning-pro.html

Transfer Switches Simplified
Practical tips for understanding and installing these devices in residential applications
By David Herres
Jan 01, 2009
https://www.ecmweb.com/basics/article/20894438/transfer-switches-simp

 

[ajdelange]

The F-150 Lightning reveal was very misleading.

It's marketing!

D. When charging the truck, most will not get the super fast 80A charge rate because most houses do not have spare 80A capacity. Many houses only have total of 100A for the entire house.

E: Installation of 80A circuit should be installed by licensed electrician & might require permits with city. Because of need for automatic transfer switch/grid disconnect & 80A circuit even the less complicated installs will probably cost at least $1,000 (parts & labor). Cost could easily be $1,000s more if need upgraded service line from electric provider.

This is an 80 A charger (and yes, it is really a DC charger - not yout typical Level 2 EVSE - capable of 19.6 kW) and so will require a 100 A circuit. It definitely will require a professional electrician and, in most jurisdictions a permit. I don't know exactly how it will wire into the system but there must be a means of automatically disconnecting it from the grid in the case of outage. 9.6 kW is a pretty puny load capacity (my house load exceeds that about 4% of the time) so there may be some subpanel involved (for your critical systems - more electrician work). Absent that the system would have to have automatic load shedding as backup systems are now required to be able to supply everything connected to them. This may be handled by simply shutting the inverter down when battery SoC gets low enough. That would certainly simplify things. This is what the Powerwall does.

Transfer Switches Simplified
Practical tips for understanding and installing these devices in residential applications
By David Herres
Jan 01, 2009
https://www.ecmweb.com/basics/article/20894438/transfer-switches-simp

I doubt that the "transfer switch" is going to be a conventional transfer switch like the ones used with generators. These double pole double throw switches connect the load (house) to either the utility or generator. More likely here will be something more like the Powewall "gateway". This is a double pole single throw switch which when closed connects the house bus to the utility. The backup source is also a load (when the battery is charging) so it is permanently connected to the house bus.

I won't go on any further here as it would be just speculation. Time will tell.

 

[anionic1]

I think that is Vehicle to Home (act a as a backup generator and disconnect home from power grid while feeding power into the home) not Vehicle to Grid (sell power back to utility company) ...but then Tesla has this technology but refuses to do it.

Thats because it would cannibalize their solar and power wall companies. I am sure there is a very simple transfer switch type solution and I am sure tesla has considered it, but its not really ideal. Think about the warranty issues. Folks could feasibly decide that they want to use their car to power their home every day so how would the vehicle manufacturer count that against the warranty of the battery if its not considered mileage? Also, for a long time the EV market demographic seemed to be folks that could likely afford battery backup systems in addition to their EV car. It would seem that Tesla will likely provide an option similar to the Ford vehicle to home power option.

 

[fritter63]

That's the beauty of the system. Let's say I have a house with a ridgeline that runs north south. Thus one roof facet faces east and one west. Not ideal for solar!. But I install panels anyway. When the sun rises in the morning the east facing panels get it and each, equipped with IQ-7s with MPP, extracts as much pawer as it can given the amount of sunlight falling on it. The west facing panels get very little. The east panels carry the load in the AM. At noon the sun shines equally on the east and west facets but in neither case is it direct, full sun because of the orientation of those facets. Nevertheless each panel of each facet produces as much electricity as it can and the output of the two combined while perhaps not producing as much as one facet pointed south, produce almost as much as that optimum case. The afternoon is, of course, the same as the morning except that the west facing panels now shoulder the majority of the load. Thus the system sort of follows the sun around without anything moving physically.

I have 97 panels over 6 facets (old house that has been added on to). Under cloudless skies near the solstice and near apparent solar noon they have produced power slightly greater than the sum of the output for the 97 inverters.


I can't do that but could I think I'd do it a month and a half after the equinoxes.


Each IQ-7 is an independent solar system which will push as much current as it can, given, current insolation level, into the house/grid. If a tree shades part, or all, of a panel that panel will continue to produce as much as it can under the circumstances.

The IQ-7 (and other) inverters measure grid frequency,voltage and phase. If frequency or voltage are out of limits the grid is assumed missing and the IQ-7 shuts down.

The gateway is the transfer switch in a solar/Powerwall system. It measures utility parameters and if it finds them out of spec it opens the contactor that connects the utility to the house. The Powerwalls now feed the house and clock the IQ-7s (or whatever inverter you have connected). Excess power (not used by the house) charges the Powerall(s). When they near full the Powerwalls "curtails" PV production by changing the clock frequency.

In an off grid installation the gateway upon sensing that the Powerwalls are getting low, starts the standby generator and closes its contactor to connect it to the bus.

So we AGREE that the iq-7s don't really track the sun?

Other than that I don't know why you felt the need to re-educate me on micro inverters.

 

[Rozonoe]

Not with that tiny cable they showed! you may get SOME power out of it, but you're not going to be running the (electric) dryer, etc.

Also, it's not just a matter of reversing the power. You also need a cutoff to isolate your house from the grid so you aren't powering the lines while they work on them. For power walls this is called a gateway, so you'll also need to pay to have that installed as well. I'm guessing the V2H will only work when plugged into a gateway type box like this.

Yes, but at least it is possible with the Lightning. Just install a cut off switch & voilà!

 

[firsttruck]

Ford is not the first to do vehicle to home (V2H).


Vehicle-to-Home (V2H) has been available for over 8 years in Japan. Nissan Japan actually advertised the feature. There are even examples of small stores using Nissan Leafs for power.
V2H available since 2018 in parts of UK. Australia in 2021.

Nissan Announce “LEAF to Home” Power Supply System
Posted on June 4, 2012 by Jim
https://v2g.co.uk/2012/06/nissan-announce-leaf-to-home-power-supply-system/


Nissan and Nichicon to Launch the 'LEAF to Home' Power Supply System With "EV Power Station"
2012/05/29 (YOKOHAMA, Japan)
https://global.nissannews.com/en/releases/120530-01-e


Nissan Power Supply Ecosystem
Vehicle-to-Home (V2H)
Vehicle-to-Grid (V2G)
Virtual Power Plant
2018
https://www.nissan-global.com/EN/ZEROEMISSION/APPROACH/COMPREHENSIVE/ECOSYSTEM/


2020 Sept - EV concept provides mobile power supply in aftermath of natural disasters
As a disaster recovery vehicle, the RE-LEAF can power multiple devices simultaneously. Here are some examples based on 230-volt power use:
Electric jackhammer – 24 hours – 36 kWh
Pressure ventilation fan – 24 hours – 21.6 kWh
10-liter soup kettle – 24 hours – 9.6 kWh
Intensive care medical ventilator – 24 hours – 3 kWh
100-watt LED floodlight – 24 hours – 2.4 kWh
Nissan RE-LEAF: Power when it’s needed, where it’s needed
2020/09/29
https://global.nissannews.com/en/releases/nissan-re-leaf-power-when-its-needed-where-its-needed

Vehicle-to-grid energy storage goes into action at Amsterdam Arena
By: Andy Colthorpe
Published: 9 Dec 2019,
https://www.energy-storage.news/new...y-storage-goes-into-action-at-amsterdam-arena

Electric vehicle powers Johan Cruijff ArenA through V2G technology
Dec 11, 2019
The Mobility House


Australia - Nissan LEAF to light up Australia: Industry-first vehicle-to-grid charging technology launched at Realising Electric Vehicles Services (REVS) in ACT
First vehicle-to-grid (V2G) technology to be introduced in Australia through Nissan’s support of Realising Electric Vehicle Services (REVS)
https://www.nissan.com.au/about-nis...0/July/nissan-leaf-to-light-up-australia.html

Nissan LEAF 2.ZERO Launch Edition Now Available From £339 Per Month On 3-Year PCP
If you are in the UK, here’s the deal for you. A new electric car is in town. Well, a new old one. You can now put your name down for a Nissan LEAF 2.ZERO — the exclusive launch edition of the next-generation Nissan LEAF. Nissan has just announced the PCP offer for this new LEAF.
“The car now comes with a vehicle-to-home (V2H) feature that will come in handy in case of emergency. If you’re not familiar with that, V2H is bi-directional charging capability that allows the Nissan LEAF to charge but also allows it to send power back to your home. What this means is you could feasibly charge somewhere and drive back home to run your home electricity needs from your LEAF.”
By Cynthia Shahan
Published December 8, 2017
https://cleantechnica.com/2017/12/0...ition-now-available-339-per-month-3-year-pcp/


Nissan Australia touts LEAF V2H capabilities
Nissan LEAF - Electric car of new-generation | Nissan Australia
Explore hassle-free charging at home or on the go, at over 800 charge stations nationwide. Nissan LEAF charging in home garage
28 ago. 2019
https://www.nissan.com.au/vehicles/browse-range/leaf.html

 

[firsttruck]

Not with that tiny cable they showed! you may get SOME power out of it, but you're not going to be running the (electric) dryer, etc.

Also, it's not just a matter of reversing the power. You also need a cutoff to isolate your house from the grid so you aren't powering the lines while they work on them. For power walls this is called a gateway, so you'll also need to pay to have that installed as well. I'm guessing the V2H will only work when plugged into a gateway type box like this.

Yes, but at least it is possible with the Lightning. Just install a cut off switch & voilà!

You can do V2H with Cybertruck too. The Cybertruck has 220/240V outlet that you can use like any gas generator.

And just like a gas generator, if connecting to a building's electrical system you need some extra pieces. Transfer switch, grid cutoff, critical loads panel.

The Ford F-150 Lightning Limited & Platinum will need those things too but not the $40K base model because the base model F-150 Lightning does not include 80A charger/backup station and does not even include Power on Board 220/240V outlet in its own bed.

 

[Rozonoe]

I don't understand the attraction of V2G/V2H/VGI.

Very rarely do markets allow rate surfing (charging for cheap at night and selling back during peak). More markets are nerfing net metering and even penalizing solar/power generation.

If the issue is a cool feature, then I get some people are just like that.

If it's for emergencies, then the car is for leaving not charging the house. A dead car and a warm house is a trap. Also, there's this thing called a generator, it generates. Powerwalls (or any of the many battery solutions) are designed for the slow charge, slow consumption. Second hand battery repurposing is supposedly slated for this market. Why put the wear on your car, why not put it on a product designed for such issues??

I'm sure the people of Texas would have liked there Tesla to power part of there home in the emergency this spring! This is a no brainer!!

 

[Felix501]

I suspect they would just put the inverter between the main feedline and the house. Then the inverter can work as an auto disconnect and swap the power instantly while blocking power to the feed line. Then just wire up a 240v outlet in the garage for the Truck.

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