Cybertruck 1000V Architecture + V4 Supercharging Confirmed!! ⚡️ "It's Going to be Used for Cybertruck Too" - Elon Musk

[SolarWizard]

If you try to force MW into a a battery that will be somewhere between 150&200kWh, its not gonna do it for long and will almost surely overwhelm the cooling system. If I were you id be expecting similar charge times to that of a plaid S Or X

Elon said CT would get 1MW charging. Please look at the slide with the immersion cooled cable, you can find it as the thread header. It says 1 MW+ then it shows 2 cables labeled V3 and V4. V4 is 1MW+

Then why would they present semi with MCS and say CT gets it too? Why say 1000v architecture and say future vehicles are getting 1000v too? Why release NACS with an update done in Nov22 for 1000v NACS?
Why does everyone ignore what they say and act like something can't be done, right after they once again watch a Tesla presentation where they did exactly what some people say can't be done?
What is it about NACS that makes people think it can't do 1MW.
I understand that we have seen several charger for semi while they worked it out but showing pictures from a year ago is not the same as a standards document from 1 month ago.

Sponsored

 

[CyberGus]

Elon said CT would get 1MW charging.

Elon said very little, and was vague. We’re all filling in the blanks with assumptions.

 

[samroy92]

Elon said CT would get 1MW charging. Please look at the slide with the immersion cooled cable, you can find it as the thread header. It says 1 MW+ then it shows 2 cables labeled V3 and V4. V4 is 1MW+

The charger, the cable, etc. are all capable over of 1MW+. That's not what we're arguing against.

Specifically, a Semi Truck with an 1000kWh battery pack charging at a power of 1000kW is a 1C charging rate. A Cybertruck with a 180kWh battery pack charging at a power of 1000kW is a 5.5C rate.

Show me any battery today or even in the future that can charge at 5C without literally destroying itself. It. Is. Not. Realistic.

Model 3/Y charge peak 3.3C. Refreshed S/X charge at peak 2.5C. Optimized 4680 cells may be able to peak charge between 3C - 4C? Internal resistance with Tabless is a tailwind for charging rate, resilient chemistry too, but much larger volume - which is a headwind. There are factors in favor and in against a higher peak C-Rate for the 4680 cell.

 

[cal]

I've had Tesla's since 2013 and rarely use superchargers. Even when I had unlimited charging. Always had plenty of range to get home and really don't enjoy taking time to charge when I'm out and about. I am concerned with the time it would take to recharge a huge battery at home or on a regular supercharger. I know I have all night to recharge but will that be enough with a mobile charger? Will I (like long range battery Lightning owners) really need to buy a home high power charger to make sure I can recharge overnight. Ford does provide one but you have to order it from a separate company. I know I own't have that problem but size matters and bigger batteries are going to need more than my MS needs now. I'm sure they will have it figured out when they present us with final pricing and specs.

 

[GnarlyDudeLive]

The charger, the cable, etc. are all capable over of 1MW+. That's not what we're arguing against.

Specifically, a Semi Truck with an 1000kWh battery pack charging at a power of 1000kW is a 1C charging rate. A Cybertruck with a 180kWh battery pack charging at a power of 1000kW is a 5.5C rate.

Show me any battery today or even in the future that can charge at 5C without literally destroying itself. It. Is. Not. Realistic.

Model 3/Y charge peak 3.3C. Refreshed S/X charge at peak 2.5C. Optimized 4680 cells may be able to peak charge between 3C - 4C? Internal resistance with Tabless is a tailwind for charging rate, resilient chemistry too, but much larger volume - which is a headwind. There are factors in favor and in against a higher peak C-Rate for the 4680 cell.

How many minutes do you think you COULD sustain 5.5c peak charging with a 4680 180kwh pack with your data?

 

[samroy92]

How many minutes do you think you COULD sustain 5.5c peak charging with a 4680 180kwh pack with your data?

Just guessing but probably less than 10 seconds - I believe that you will permanently damage the cell if you try to charge or discharge it that fast. There is a reason why Tesla rate limits and -all- battery manufacturers BMS have limits on charging rate and discharging rate. It is because the batteries will degrade faster than you can blink.

Most continuous C-Rates hover between 1-2C (even on the most modern cells) . Peak rates can hit 10C but for just a few seconds to handle surge loads. It will damage the molecular structure of the battery though.

Again, this is the reason why the Semi can charge at 1+MW, because its distributed across thousands of cells (800-1000kWh worth). You will -not- get the same performance out of a pack that is 1/5th the size. It's just physics. You will destroy the cells. I truly do want to see amazing performance out of the 4680 though, maybe the best C-Rates ever with high cycle life. But 5-6C is unrealistic.

Most optimistic IMO is Cybertruck peak rate around 675kW of power for a short period of time, but Tesla will probably keep them conservative for longevity of between 300-400kW of peak charging rate with some room to push the envelope.

@Dids @GnarlyDudeLive @GhostAndSkater @CyberGus

 

[samroy92]

One more stat for the "CT can charge at 1MW" people:

On Tesla's website it says the Semi can charge 70% battery in 30 minutes. Assuming 915kWh that is an average rate of 1.28MW. This is equivalent to 1.4C.

If Cybertruck is 180kWh, 70% of that is 126kWh in 30 minutes... which is an average rate of 252kW (1.4C rate). We are all assuming the CT 4680 cells are going to have more performance than the Semi but I hope this puts it into perspective for everyone...

I mentioned in an earlier post on this thread that I believe the Semi Truck can actually hit peak rates of 2-3MW ~2.2C - 3.3C. And again that would put the CT at 400kW - 600kW absolute max with so many other headwinds like cooling capacity of the pack, increased volume of the cells, limits in the on-board charging hardware, limits that Tesla puts on it for longevity/warranty sake.

Source:

 

[TyPope]

232 kwh in 30 days is 7.73 kwh per day. That's like 93 cents per day

Knock it off. Any improvements in battery tech from the best 2170 cells to current Cybertruck 4680 cells will be incremental, not revolutionary. The real advantage of 4680 will be cost to produce. Those expecting a new battery chemistry to suddenly allow 3X more capability simply don't understand how battery evolution works.

No. I'm not talking chemistry. In a normal jelly roll battery, an electron has to travel up to 32 inches (16" or 406 mm) average from the connecting tab to the average spot it's going to hang out in.
On the 4680, with it's 'tabless' design, the average distance an electron travels is 40 millimeters. Electricity traveling through a conductor encounters resistance. Resistance = heat. So, the 4680 batteries will see approximately 10 times lower internal resistance. That means less heat. That means you can shove more electricity through the battery and generate the same amount of heat. 10 times the electricity? Not quite, but it will be a lot.
THAT is the battery tech I was referring to. Chemistry changes will be incremental.

 

[samroy92]

On the 4680, with it's 'tabless' design, the average distance an electron travels is measured in millimeters. Electricity traveling through a conductor encounters resistance. Resistance = heat. So, the 4680 batteries will see approximately 200 times lower internal resistance. That means less heat. That means you can shove more electricity through the battery and generate the same amount of heat. 200 times? Not quite, but it will be a lot.
THAT is the battery tech I was referring to. Chemistry changes will be incremental.

Yes but directly counter to that is the size of the 4680 cell. The Tabless design -allows- the cell to be much larger by volume, which is harder to cool. I'm not disagreeing overall - I think tabless will unlock overall net benefits (there are volumetric benefits too! structural cell to pack!!) but heat will still be an issue.

 

[TyPope]

Yes but directly counter to that is the size of the 4680 cell. The Tabless design -allows- the cell to be much larger by volume, which is harder to cool. I'm not disagreeing overall - I think tabless will unlock overall net benefits (there are volumetric benefits too! structural cell to pack!!) but heat will still be an issue.

I'm sure you are right. The larger battery size may make heat dissipation tougher. I'm just curious how much internal resistance will be mitigated by the new design. I mean, I know avg distance is reduced from 406 to 40 mm but how much heat will that distance change eliminate?

 

[samroy92]

I'm sure you are right. The larger battery size may make heat dissipation tougher. I'm just curious how much internal resistance will be mitigated by the new design. I mean, I know avg distance is reduced from 406 to 40 mm but how much heat will that distance change eliminate?

So 4680 has around 4-6x less internal resistance than a 2170 cell. But a 4680 cell has about 5.5x the volume of a 2170 cell! That will directly correlate to heat dissipation!

LG 2170 cell data sheet source:
http://thebatterydoctor.eu/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/20160823-PS-LGC-INR21700-M50_Tentative.pdf

4680 tentative data source:
https://www.batterydesign.net/tesla-4680-cell/

2170 internal resistance 24 - 36 mOhms. Source:

4680 internal resistance 5-9 mOhms, source:

 

[GnarlyDudeLive]

So 4680 has around 4-6x less internal resistance than a 2170 cell. But a 4680 cell has about 5.5x the volume of a 2170 cell! That will directly correlate to heat dissipation!

True about heat dissipation but the 5x mass also means also means it takes longer to hit the saturation point of heat before reduction in charging speeds. So not just heat dissipation but also heat saturation. Something to ponder on.

 

[Dids]

The charger, the cable, etc. are all capable over of 1MW+. That's not what we're arguing against.

Specifically, a Semi Truck with an 1000kWh battery pack charging at a power of 1000kW is a 1C charging rate. A Cybertruck with a 180kWh battery pack charging at a power of 1000kW is a 5.5C rate.

Show me any battery today or even in the future that can charge at 5C without literally destroying itself. It. Is. Not. Realistic.

Model 3/Y charge peak 3.3C. Refreshed S/X charge at peak 2.5C. Optimized 4680 cells may be able to peak charge between 3C - 4C? Internal resistance with Tabless is a tailwind for charging rate, resilient chemistry too, but much larger volume - which is a headwind. There are factors in favor and in against a higher peak C-Rate for the 4680 cell.

https://www.pdbattery.com/fast-charge-battery.html

 

[samroy92]

True about heat dissipation but the 5x mass also means also means it takes longer to hit the saturation point of heat before reduction in charging speeds. So not just heat dissipation but also heat saturation. Something to ponder on.

Very true! Good point

 

[MiguelAznar]

What a thoughtful discussion on 4680 charging rates! “Thoughtful” both for how much thought goes into your (at least 3 of you just here, but many elsewhere on this site, too) analysis and also how polite, acknowledging the others point and then clarifying differences. I am enjoying this learning process thanks to you.

Sponsored