ZERO PUBLIC ROAD TOWING TESTS

[TyPope]

why do you think that?

tesla can only perform over-the-air software updates, not switch out mechanicals

Ford rolls out significant over-the-air software updates to the Lightning, too (and I can't imagine why the T3 wouldn't).

conversely, at least with respect to the F150 platform and towing, Ford probably has a *little bit* more data and experience around towing than does Tesla so far

What you say here is true. Up until the Lightning, is what I should have said. Conventional trucks don't get over the air updates unless you count Sync updates which my truck STILL refuses to do.
Obviously Tesla can't change hardware out. Towing data is probably available to Tesla from others though they'd have to pay for it. Maybe not from Ford but trucks have been around a long time and it would be weird if there was no data available on towing to Tesla. Ford has a little bit of data about towing with electrics like you said but they have a LOT more experience towing in general. Tesla has really good system integration and software engineers which will help them overcome the vast majority of towing changes that they missed with their simulation / modeling software.

In short: I think most of Ford's efforts in testing is before the year model is built. They don't really change builds in the middle of production. Tesla, on the other hand, can find out they need to change something major and they will change it right then and all future models will carry that fix.

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[Jhodgesatmb]

yes, exactly

a significant difference here, though, is that this *is* showing just how incredibly powerful these vehicles are absent and excluding the physics of friction

here’s Tesla’s version:

and it just goes to show the point of how useless that tow battle stunt is/was

the CyberTruck has roughly twice the torque and 3-4X the horsepower, and likely better 4W traction control compared to the below F-650

Yet the above F650 would drag a CT around, it’s tires smoking, like a rag doll

why? The F650 merely weighs more and has more tire contact patch

these pulling stunts have essentially zero to do with power, exactly zero to do with payload, and everything to do with mere traction (and so weight)

that a CT with 2,000lb of extra weight, 4 wheel drive, and 36X11.5” tires could pull an F150 with 2 wheel drive and stock 30x10” tires around …

Is as interesting as an F650 pulling a CT around


And let me ask this, @DMC-81 - if Ford released a video of an F650 pulling a CT around, you think that would be a “wake-up call” to Musk and Tesla?

sure as hell hope not

Wait a minute. I agree that these PR stunts are more about inter-OEM rivalry than anything else, or about the limited objectivity and reasoning skills of the larger population, but wasn't Elon's point that the Cybertruck (2019 dual-motor unveiling version) had the same dimensions and weight of the ICE F-150? Wasn't that the whole point. In that case it would at least be a fairer contest. There is no question that comparing an instant-on power curve to one that isn't couldn't be completely fair but there have been N drag-strip videos that demonstrated this over and over again. I'm just saying that there might be some value in such a comparison - but not for me.

 

[ÆCIII]

Yes, because he explains the actual physics behind things like the tug-o-war and towing. He is NOT anti-EV or anti-ICE. He's quite level-headed and can explain all his findings with physics. Even with all my schooling, he can apply physics a lot better than I can. The stuff that he shows, can be verified by applying the same physics he uses (and, I've done that). That's why I trust his findings more than some other talking head or "internet expert".

I also think Jason might be a lot more 'versed' at physics than many other so-called experts. But IMO his attempting to 'weigh in' without waiting until he could do a comparative demo of his own, would make him appear biased to many. One can say only so much without a comparative demonstration - 'talk is cheap'.

Without access to a CT to demonstrate, there could be a lot of specs or headroom Jason is unware of, so I think he should've waited, and I'm always suspicious of those who would weigh in quickly without a demonstration of their own. But if he eventually does do a demo of his own, I'll certainly watch it.

It's actually water under the bridge now anyway, because the Cybertruck is a different vehicle than it was then, and until we see new demos and specifications, all previous bets are off.

- ÆCIII

 

[Crissa]

Yes, because he explains the actual physics behind things like the tug-o-war and towing. He is NOT anti-EV or anti-ICE. He's quite level-headed and can explain all his findings with physics. Even with all my schooling, he can apply physics a lot better than I can. The stuff that he shows, can be verified by applying the same physics he uses (and, I've done that). That's why I trust his findings more than some other talking head or "internet expert".

He also updates and admits when he's wrong or his assumptions were wrong.

That's why I always upvote when people apologize or admit error on this board. Being able to correct yourself and admit error is essential to proper engineering. And civil discussion.

-Crissa

 

[Jhodgesatmb]

I live in Arizona and fly over a few "proving grounds." I could have sworn I may have seen the Cybertruck at the AMTC (Arizona Mobility Test Center) pulling a trailer..but I may be wrong..It was during the descent and we were very busy..

Point is, there are many test tracks that are out of sight and away any cameras. Manufacturers use these tracks often for testing and out of public view.

IMHO, the Cybertruck public sightings have been intentional and its Tesla's unique way of advertising (FREE).

I suspect that the big news will be software associated with towing, like hooking up, or automatic backup or driving with a trailer; all of which could be tested in a closed environment.

 

[Crissa]

I know the tug of war was a meaningless show-off...

..But it was still important: Most people didn't (don't) know electric motors are so strong or accurate. So the pure strength and accuracy needed to be demonstrated.

There are dozens of videos of a Model X dragging massive things, but it needed to be shown as brute force to change the paradigm, and flip the lights in lots of people's heads to get them to think it was even equal to the ICE powered truck.

-Crissa

 

[TyPope]

I also think Jason might be a lot more 'versed' at physics than many other so-called experts. But IMO his attempting to 'weigh in' without waiting until he could do a comparative demo of his own, would make him appear biased to many. One can say only so much without a comparative demonstration - 'talk is cheap'.

Without access to a CT to demonstrate, there could be a lot of specs or headroom Jason is unware of, so I think he should've waited, and I'm always suspicious of those who would weigh in quickly without a demonstration of their own. But if he eventually does do a demo of his own, I'll certainly watch it.

It's actually water under the bridge now anyway, because the Cybertruck is a different vehicle than it was then, and until we see new demos and specifications, all previous bets are off.

- ÆCIII

He may not have a CT but it still requires approximately 9.8 joules of energy to lift 1 kilogram of mass by 1 meter.

 

[TyPope]

Put some super sticky tires on the CT, hang something from the door on a string with something behind it to show the CT's angle. Then, drive slowly forward in a really sticky curving upward road section... drive that sucker until it's almost 90 degrees... showing that it is powerful enough to drive straight up... and maybe show how stable it is.

That'd get people to realize electrics are powerful... maybe do the same type of thing at a side angle to show how un-tippy they are. Contrast it with a Robin Reliant. LOL... Heck, even a conventional truck.

That'd be fun to see.

They see me (not) rollin'!

 

[cvalue13]

but wasn't Elon's point that the Cybertruck (2019 dual-motor unveiling version) had the same dimensions and weight of the ICE F-150? Wasn't that the whole point.

that may a been a theme of the unveil presentation, but it was certainly *not* the context of the stunt against the 2019 CT prototype. which is sort of the point

The F-150 used in that stunt was a lower-spec STX package was a 2 wheel drive (i.e., a single, powered tire in the rear, where there's ~no weight), on stock tires, in a short-bed configuration (145.4 wheelbase.

Meanwhile, the CT prototype was all-wheel drive, on 36" mudder tires, with a noticeably longer wheelbase, and whatever the CT prototype weighed (we dont know), as a BEV it was distributed ~equally 'over' all four tires.

these differences, given that these pulling stunts come down entirely to traction, is why the stunt had nothing to do with the theme of the unveil presentation

 

[CyberGus]

He also updates and admits when he's wrong or his assumptions were wrong.

That's why I always upvote when people apologize or admit error on this board. Being able to correct yourself and admit error is essential to proper engineering. And civil discussion.

-Crissa

I thought I was wrong once, but I was mistaken.

 

[Accur8Bill]

I don't know enough to weigh in on whether it's a cause for concern

But I do agree that it's notionally odd that we've never spied a CT towing ... anything at all.

And for a truck, those tests would seem to be every bit as important, and pretty time-consuming to get right, as say winter driving in NZ.

good and interesting post!

I am curious about the ramp in the tailgate. Has that made it past the prototype stage? They have offered a child's dirtquad in China I believe.

 

[cvalue13]

I am curious about the ramp in the tailgate. Has that made it past the prototype stage? They have offered a child's dirtquad in China I believe.

there’s been no evidence yet seen of a tailgate ramp

nobody here really knows (or can share)

as conjecture (or unsupported assertion), it’s been proposed that the tailgate has been omitted due to its limited utility being outweighed by other factors (eg expense, added weight, etc.)

but the fat lady is still backstage

 

[RayzorBEV]

Did anyone bother to post this question directly to Elon on X? Just wondering...

 

[Crissa]

The Model X and Model Y are structurally and mechanically similar to the Cybertruck. The Cybertruck is stiffer and has rear wheel steering, but the power is systems are fairly similar. The motors are mounted similarly, etc.

-Crissa

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