How Should FSD behave? Godfather of Self-Driving Cars (Sebastian Thrun) on “Polite” Self-Driving.

[dalton108]

I’m biased. I was trained to drive assertively and I believe that is the best policy. I hate it when people try to be polite while driving! IE someone is trying to go across three lanes of traffic from a strip mall to get across to the left-hand turn, or you’re making a left-hand turn and you don’t have the right way and somebody wants to create it for you - these types of things drive me bananas!!!

Just follow the rules and drive your own vehicle! If you’re following the rules (not including the speed limit) I will know how to operate.

I know that we have some folks here who would like to drive slow, use extreme caution, and concern themselves with whether other vehicle operators would approve of their maneuvers (eww). I think this is nonsense. This video is great and if you have the time please watch it in total if you’re into startups, technology or the philosophical underpinnings of Silicon Valley. But for the instant conversation it begins at about 31:50 and begins with a question about whether there are Waymos in New York City here’s the relevant transcript:

—-

That seems insane.

Why?

I mean, when was the last time you were in New York?

Look, here’s the thing about New York. The cars drive. If you’re in a taxi in New York, you’re inches from the car next to you. But it turns out a self-driving car can calculate the distance much, much, much better than people because it has these amazing lidars that just sit there and tell you with millimeter accuracy how far these other things away. When it comes to precision, robots win.

Okay. But part of the driving demeanor of New York City is an aggressiveness.

Correct.

That defines how you move around in New York.

Same in San Francisco. Maybe not quite as extreme.

That might be true. But it’s not as extreme like in New York. You kind of got to run some red lights to get anywhere. Even if you’re turning left or whatever, it’s just kind of how it is. People are walking around everywhere in a way that it’s not the same in San Francisco.

We learned this the hard way early on in Google Chaffur, which is on highways. If you stick in San Francisco to the posted highway speed, you become an obstacle. In many, many cases people exceed the speed by 10 to 15 miles per hour. If you roll with the traffic, you’re generally safer than if you slow everybody else down and force them to drive around you.

We also learned at four-way intersections early on: if you want to be polite and wait until it’s your turn, you’re never going to go. When it’s your turn, you have to inch forward aggressively into the intersection to signal to other drivers, now it’s my turn, I’m going to take it. Stay away. That’s what’s happening. You’re constantly communicating with other traffic. Same is true for lane changes and so on.

When you look at Waymo over the years, it has become much more “aggressive” to make it safer, right?

If you drive overly carefully, you don’t add to public safety, you just slow everything down. So if you look at self-driving cars today, and many people remarked this to me, I’m obviously not in the team anymore, but I believe that the Waymo car has become significantly more assertive, for sure. And it’s probably got sick of getting cut off.

I think traffic works in a certain way and you have to adjust to the way traffic works. When you go to Manhattan, you have to adjust even more. Obviously, if you go to Bangalore, you have to adjust because of different traffic. You go to Boston.

So you don’t think it doesn’t matter the city is your point.

I think you can adjust to any kind of traffic rules. Yeah, you’ve come full circle from “there’s no way this thing’s going to work.” Most extreme is, go to India where the size of the vehicle determines the right away. If you have the big bus, you go first. If you re the smallest vehicle, you go last. Yes, all that can be learned.

Fascinating.

[Emphasis added.]
—

Here's the full video. Again, highly recommend watching the whole thing - if you have the time/interest. He also throws just a bit of shade at Tesla/Elon about vision only.

Sponsored

 

[Jhodgesatmb]

I have no issue with anyone (myself included) driving assertively, and even aggressively, when called for. I also have no issue with the speed people drive at as long as it doesn't put anyone/anything at risk. I think that the examples you gave are valid ones too.

The scenarios I have been complaining about are really about road etiquette. When you are on the highway and there is a line of cars trying to pass a semi, I consider it bad etiquette to drive up past all of those cars on the right, right behind the semi, and the force your way into the line. FSD has done that in the past. If everyone drove that way then traffic would come to a stand still. If you are driving in the slow lane (the one used for slower cars or for cars entering or exiting the highway), and you see that a car is entering the highway, I would consider it poor etiquette to not change lanes if I can predict that the oncoming car and mine might be close to each other, as long as it doesn't disrupt traffic. Is it the obligation of the merging vehicle to merge? Absolutely. Will they? Maybe. If you know that you are going to exit the highway in 2 miles, does it make sense to be passing a semi and then going around it just in time to exit? It may be legal, and it may even be safe, but the world will label you a dick for doing it. My FSD did it 3 times before I realized that its threshold is 2 miles. None of these situations interfere with your being either assertive or aggressive. What pissed me off is that Tesla has engineered FSD profiles to be aggressive in lieu of being reasonable.

I did watch the video and I have no issue with self driving cars having to be assertive to keep things running properly. There are altogether too many times that FSD comes to an empty intersection and just sits there. That is entirely different than what I am critical of.

 

[ABILISK]

Just follow the rules and drive your own vehicle! If you’re following the rules (not including the speed limit) I will know how to operate.

YES. It takes longer for a person to realize you’re inappropriately giving them the right of way and go than if you just take your right of way and get out of the way. And speed limits are ridiculous things. Put in place decades ago when cars took like three times as long to stop. Cars have evolved and we should be able to go faster now. Most do, and that’s great. Some people are happy as can be listening to those ridiculous signs on the side of the road.

 

[That Beast Mode]

And speed limits are ridiculous things. Cars have evolved and we should be able to go faster now.

Can we consider this a lawful command? Just tell me I'll get a box of those courtesy cards, just in case.

 

[ABILISK]

Can we consider this a lawful command? Just tell me I'll get a box of those courtesy cards, just in case.

All I can offer is that I’ll never write you for speeding. Others will unfortunately.

I’m almost 10 years into this job and I’ve never written a speeding ticket. Not one. Have I stopped people for speeding? Sure. But no tickets for that specifically. If their registration is current, they have insurance and a license, no unpaid ticket warrants, etc, they get a warning. Otherwise, I’ll write them for the non-moving violations. Keeps points off their record and is a way lower fine. I’m not about kicking people while they’re down.

 

[hemiarch]

Great talk @dalton108 , thanks for the post

 

[dalton108]

All I can offer is that I’ll never write you for speeding. Others will unfortunately.

I’m almost 10 years into this job and I’ve never written a speeding ticket. Not one. Have I stopped people for speeding? Sure. But no tickets for that specifically. If their registration is current, they have insurance and a license, no unpaid ticket warrants, etc, they get a warning. Otherwise, I’ll write them for the non-moving violations. Keeps points off their record and is a way lower fine. I’m not about kicking people while they’re down.

A scholar and a gentleman!!!

 

[dalton108]

I have no issue with anyone (myself included) driving assertively, and even aggressively, when called for. I also have no issue with the speed people drive at as long as it doesn't put anyone/anything at risk. I think that the examples you gave are valid ones too.

The scenarios I have been complaining about are really about road etiquette. When you are on the highway and there is a line of cars trying to pass a semi, I consider it bad etiquette to drive up past all of those cars on the right, right behind the semi, and the force your way into the line. FSD has done that in the past. If everyone drove that way then traffic would come to a stand still. If you are driving in the slow lane (the one used for slower cars or for cars entering or exiting the highway), and you see that a car is entering the highway, I would consider it poor etiquette to not change lanes if I can predict that the oncoming car and mine might be close to each other, as long as it doesn't disrupt traffic. Is it the obligation of the merging vehicle to merge? Absolutely. Will they? Maybe. If you know that you are going to exit the highway in 2 miles, does it make sense to be passing a semi and then going around it just in time to exit? It may be legal, and it may even be safe, but the world will label you a dick for doing it. My FSD did it 3 times before I realized that its threshold is 2 miles. None of these situations interfere with your being either assertive or aggressive. What pissed me off is that Tesla has engineered FSD profiles to be aggressive in lieu of being reasonable.

I did watch the video and I have no issue with self driving cars having to be assertive to keep things running properly. There are altogether too many times that FSD comes to an empty intersection and just sits there. That is entirely different than what I am critical of.

I think Sebastian, through his work, has reached the same conclusion that we did in our largely layperson discussion, i.e. it’s situational. National, regional, and local preferences and customs have to be honored or this won’t work. When there’s a cue mismatch is when you have other drivers become frustrated even if they are safer because of the AI.

I mostly posted this because I thought it was timely and fascinating and kind of an amalgamation of all the discussion we were having. Not really a rebuttal to anything that you said @Jhodgesatmb. Great points have been made by all!

 

[dalton108]

A scholar and a gentleman!!!

DAMMIT!!! An “OFFICER and a gentleman” was right there!!!

 

[ABILISK]

DAMMIT!!! An “OFFICER and a gentleman” was right there!!!

Great movie, missed opportunity

 

[Crissa]

The scenarios I have been complaining about are really about road etiquette. When you are on the highway and there is a line of cars trying to pass a semi, I consider it bad etiquette to drive up past all of those cars on the right, right behind the semi, and the force your way into the line. FSD has done that in the past.

You should instead roll up on the right, sit there and wait your turn, using less fuel while waiting for the others to pass. Once you've passed, if there's room on the right, you should return to the right lane.

If everyone drove that way then traffic would come to a stand still.

Actually no, if everyone drove that way then traffic would move more optimally and zipper because the right lane would have cars in it. So it would never do that.

I had this instance where there was a merge on the highway on I-5, and instead of using both lanes, all the cars piled into the left lane, leaving the right lane empty for more than a mile!

That doesn't speed up traffic, it makes it slower. So many times in my 700 mile trip the right lane was completely empty when cars were going different speeds.

Go towards the end, a few hundreds meters out, pace a space in the other lane, at the end: zipper in. When you get past the obstacle and a more right lane opens up? Fill it.

Plodding around - especially in the passing lane - only makes things slower. Same for yielding when it's not your turn.

-Crissa

PS, I kinda like Oregon's 'Keep Right Except When Passing' and they call the right lane the 'Slow Lane'. All three coastal states have laws against not yielding to faster traffic behind you. Those laws don't care if you're going the speed limit or not.

 

[That Beast Mode]

All I can offer is that I’ll never write you for speeding. Others will unfortunately.

I’m almost 10 years into this job and I’ve never written a speeding ticket. Not one. Have I stopped people for speeding? Sure. But no tickets for that specifically. If their registration is current, they have insurance and a license, no unpaid ticket warrants, etc, they get a warning. Otherwise, I’ll write them for the non-moving violations. Keeps points off their record and is a way lower fine. I’m not about kicking people while they’re down.

So that whole ticket quota end of the month thing really is just a rumor then. That's super nice of you and I agree, unless they are doing something really stupid people deserve a break.

 

[hemiarch]

Favorite ticket currently per my attorney buddies in Phoenix is HOV violations for people who were previously able to use it due to an EV plate and this is no longer the case since September.
Seems like a pretty dickish thing to go after enforcing.

 

[hemiarch]

All I can offer is that I’ll never write you for speeding. Others will unfortunately.

I’m almost 10 years into this job and I’ve never written a speeding ticket. Not one. Have I stopped people for speeding? Sure. But no tickets for that specifically. If their registration is current, they have insurance and a license, no unpaid ticket warrants, etc, they get a warning. Otherwise, I’ll write them for the non-moving violations. Keeps points off their record and is a way lower fine. I’m not about kicking people while they’re down.

 

[dalton108]

Oh man! Bookmarking this for later!

Sponsored