Crissa

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Well no point discussing anything with you if you ignore my resposnses. Just makes it a conversation where I talk to myself.
No, it's just not possible to respond to everything. You have to pick and choose. I'm choosing to not engage in that particular argument.

It's very simple that the cost of a grid connect should be based upon possible utilization or peak capacity. But this idea that the grid will be unbalanced is fear mongering. The grid has failed not because of renewable power, but because they took profit instead of putting in the work.

There's only so much time to devote to each conversation.

-Crissa
 

Ogre

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The grid has failed not because of renewable power, but because they took profit instead of putting in the work.
So many power companies prioritize rewarding shareholders over actually doing the thing they are paid to do. PG&E got hundreds of millions of dollars for upgrading their power lines and instead of actually upgrading their power lines, increase dividends.

It's the fundamental problem with government sanctioned monopolies and regulatory capture.
 

JBee

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No, it's just not possible to respond to everything. You have to pick and choose. I'm choosing to not engage in that particular argument.

It's very simple that the cost of a grid connect should be based upon possible utilization or peak capacity. But this idea that the grid will be unbalanced is fear mongering. The grid has failed not because of renewable power, but because they took profit instead of putting in the work.

There's only so much time to devote to each conversation.

-Crissa
Ok...so are you saying that I don't need to, or shouldn't even respond and you'll just go on your merry way? Not sure why we're here then. But anyways....

I only posted that link to demonstrate what is happening here because of the excessive solar penetration in grids. South Australia was actually mostly solved with Tesla megapack and a government funded embedded Powerwalls scheme. So the grid can live another day there. But I'm sure it's clear by now, from our previous conversations, that I'm not supporter of corporate lobbying or propaganda and don't take anyone's view without overwhelming fact, that it reduces doubt or increases probability of the truth.

There is a technical reason for grid stability that is not usurped because of some of your US companies, corrupted by fiat as they are, used the money how they shouldn't. Here things are a bit different, even though motivations are to make it the same. As a AEMO market participant, we get instructions all the time to respond to the grid, I also have access to all their monitoring and trade through their portal, and from that it is evident what is happening has a technical source.

It's likely the technical reasons they asked for money are probably mostly legit, but what they did with the cash injections are not. One doesn't cancel the other. And at no time was I discussing or trying to prove the latter was justified. The opposite is true.
 


JBee

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Yes, and I'm telling you they are lying.

-Crissa
I can say you're doing the same, doesn't make it true.
Prove that there is no technical problem with high RE penetration, in particular without storage.


(I don't have to fight for them, they do nothing for me except provide off grid customers... :) )
PS My generation is dispatchable baseload, but 100% RE, meaning that it acts as if it is storage, we also import VARS to stabilize that particular grid with high solar penetration to stop the blackouts from overvoltage as well.
 
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Crissa

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Prove that there is no technical problem with high RE penetration, in particular without storage.
Simple: The peak use is something they already had to deal with. Solar doesn't change this. It also doesn't change the use of long-distance transmission.

Yes, storage makes these problems less, but the utilities are basically lying about their current problems.

-Crissa
 

JBee

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Simple: The peak use is something they already had to deal with. Solar doesn't change this. It also doesn't change the use of long-distance transmission.

Yes, storage makes these problems less, but the utilities are basically lying about their current problems.

-Crissa
It's not just peak demand, in particular here it's peak solar generation that is the problem.

OK. Time for a quick analogy to visualize the concept of network balancing. This is the technical reason. (I'm going to ignore the corporations actions because I also don't agree with them)

Imagine the grid is a water supply system, where the pipes are the grid feeders between consumption and supply. Then imagine the grid acts as a water tank ("tank") when it comes to grid voltage, in that high voltage results in a spill that trips protection circuits and causes the grid to turn off, and the same for when the the level is to low and it trips, to protect consumers and systems on the grid. Now add some generators to the mix, where they keep topping up the tank through the pipes. And consumers that are emptying that tank through the pipes.

Now imagine that the "tank" is wafer thin, because like the grid it has no capacity to store water (or electricity in our case). Without storage, it means that demand must always equal supply as to not trip over/under setpoints, otherwise the grid shuts down. That means that if someone turns on a tap, that load of water (electricity) must instantly be available through the system, within milliseconds, so that water flows out of the customers tap (plug). To do this the current generation strategy is to make sure that there are enough generators online at all times to pickup any potential load. They do this by being already running, but at reduced throttle. This is known as "spinning reserve" and is the fundamental mechanism for network balancing.

Specifically they work in fractions of a second to modulate the grid to make sure the voltage stays stable. Think of a ICE generator where you plug in a load via "the grid" and it instantly gives you power, but you can hear the generator surge to meet the load by throttling up.

Now imagine what happens if people start throwing millions of buckets of solar water into the wafer thin grid "tank", and no one is there to use it, forcing other generators to turn off. (this happens when it's sunny but not hot enough to turn on the Aircon)

So until now with RE penetration into the grid, embedded solar generators, like solar on houses, are considered "uncurtailable" generation, meaning specifically that the grid balancing mechanism has no direct control on their output, so they need to balance them by using curtailable generators, like peak generation turbines and ICE etc that can throttle down to about 50%, but not lower, because they will stall and switch off.

So the spinning reserve and curtailable generation can only do what their nameplate capacity says. They just shutdown to protect the equipment from damage. So then if all non-solar is already shutdown on the grid, then how to you reduce solar generation to keep the grid from overflowing our wafer thin tank? By introducing mechanisms to curtail solar generation and wind, including price incentive to get them offline. The alternative is a retrofit system, (which btw is already rolling out on new installs) that allows the grid operator to turn off your solar system export to the grid. But for existing customers this will be expensive, because most inverters can't distinguish between a household load and a grid export.

(Note this is different again to the grid defection problem described earlier)
 

JeepGuy

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Lack of mechanical door handles is deal breaker.

I go off road driving, and if there is a fault, I need to be able to get out without doing some sort of convoluted hidden manual release.
eg if I get a river crossing wrong, something gets wet, fails, and the CT starts filling up with water, I need to be able to get out within seconds.
 

JBee

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Lack of mechanical door handles is deal breaker.

I go off road driving, and if there is a fault, I need to be able to get out without doing some sort of convoluted hidden manual release.
eg if I get a river crossing wrong, something gets wet, fails, and the CT starts filling up with water, I need to be able to get out within seconds.
It's likely that the door latches are spring loaded and open mechanically if the battery becomes disconnected or fails. Like in a crash. So if the power fails, you would be able to get out. Sort of like failsafe air brakes on a truck where you need air pressure to disengage the brake, otherwise the brake remains locked on.
 


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Lack of mechanical door handles is deal breaker.

I go off road driving, and if there is a fault, I need to be able to get out without doing some sort of convoluted hidden manual release.
eg if I get a river crossing wrong, something gets wet, fails, and the CT starts filling up with water, I need to be able to get out within seconds.
Rest assured my adventurous friend, Tesla does have engineers. And the manual release isn't even hard to reach!



I am certain there will be a manual release that is easy to reach, all Teslas have them (in the front seats at least).
 

dalecraig

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I will literally cancel my order if there are no external door knobs. No external door knobs combined with bullet proof exterior = extremely unsafe if I get in an accident and go unconscious - no one will be able to get me out!
I believe if you consider the overall unprecedented safety of the CT weighted against the unlikely event of being trapped due to an accident, your fears statistically may be unwarranted.
 

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It's not just peak demand, in particular here it's peak solar generation that is the problem.

OK. Time for a quick analogy to visualize the concept of network balancing. This is the technical reason. (I'm going to ignore the corporations actions because I also don't agree with them)

Imagine the grid is a water supply system, where the pipes are the grid feeders between consumption and supply. Then imagine the grid acts as a water tank ("tank") when it comes to grid voltage, in that high voltage results in a spill that trips protection circuits and causes the grid to turn off, and the same for when the the level is to low and it trips, to protect consumers and systems on the grid. Now add some generators to the mix, where they keep topping up the tank through the pipes. And consumers that are emptying that tank through the pipes.

Now imagine that the "tank" is wafer thin, because like the grid it has no capacity to store water (or electricity in our case). Without storage, it means that demand must always equal supply as to not trip over/under setpoints, otherwise the grid shuts down. That means that if someone turns on a tap, that load of water (electricity) must instantly be available through the system, within milliseconds, so that water flows out of the customers tap (plug). To do this the current generation strategy is to make sure that there are enough generators online at all times to pickup any potential load. They do this by being already running, but at reduced throttle. This is known as "spinning reserve" and is the fundamental mechanism for network balancing.

Specifically they work in fractions of a second to modulate the grid to make sure the voltage stays stable. Think of a ICE generator where you plug in a load via "the grid" and it instantly gives you power, but you can hear the generator surge to meet the load by throttling up.

Now imagine what happens if people start throwing millions of buckets of solar water into the wafer thin grid "tank", and no one is there to use it, forcing other generators to turn off. (this happens when it's sunny but not hot enough to turn on the Aircon)

So until now with RE penetration into the grid, embedded solar generators, like solar on houses, are considered "uncurtailable" generation, meaning specifically that the grid balancing mechanism has no direct control on their output, so they need to balance them by using curtailable generators, like peak generation turbines and ICE etc that can throttle down to about 50%, but not lower, because they will stall and switch off.

So the spinning reserve and curtailable generation can only do what their nameplate capacity says. They just shutdown to protect the equipment from damage. So then if all non-solar is already shutdown on the grid, then how to you reduce solar generation to keep the grid from overflowing our wafer thin tank? By introducing mechanisms to curtail solar generation and wind, including price incentive to get them offline. The alternative is a retrofit system, (which btw is already rolling out on new installs) that allows the grid operator to turn off your solar system export to the grid. But for existing customers this will be expensive, because most inverters can't distinguish between a household load and a grid export.

(Note this is different again to the grid defection problem described earlier)
I think the answer is large scale battery deployments.

This whole concept of trying to balance the grid within milliseconds by turning on and off production is archaic.

If you can make the power now, then make it. Store it for later if its not needed and redeploy for later usage.

Any local utility that is experiencing the issue of excessive solar production should be kicking teslas door down and begging for megapacks. What a great problem to have.
 

jerhenderson

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Lack of mechanical door handles is deal breaker.

I go off road driving, and if there is a fault, I need to be able to get out without doing some sort of convoluted hidden manual release.
eg if I get a river crossing wrong, something gets wet, fails, and the CT starts filling up with water, I need to be able to get out within seconds.
it's not going to be a hard function to operate - the CT needs to meet safety criteria.
 
 




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