All electricity equal or not?

[ajdelange]

You would have to be able to get inside someone's head to determine why they "wouldn't touch Generac". Their issues may or may not be well-founded.

Yes but that's not difficult to do. You are basing your love for Generac on the good experiencce you have had with yours (n = 1). The professional installer is basing his opinion on installation, service and replacements of hundreds or thousands of units over a period of years and across several models and probably across several brands too. Now it could be that Kohler flies the guy and his family to St Croix every winter if he sells over X units in a year and Generac only gives him a lousy ball cap (I doubt the former). Or it could be because Kohler always delivers when they say they will (if you are at all familiar with the industry at this point in time you'll know that's a joke) and Generac let him down consistently or bobbled a huge order at one time or..... There are so many factors that go into this.

Why did Kia come out with a 10 year 100,000 mile warranty on their cars when industry standard was 36 months or 36,000 miles, and for what was deemed to be a "disposable car" at that? I've never owned one, but everyone I know who has loves theirs and says they just run and run and run. Marketing ploy?

Yes, definitely and it worked (or I assume it worked) because the bean counters determined that the money being wasted on ineffectual advertising was better spent on warranty repairs. Did this move result in a more reliable car? This is the same reasoning Generac uses in promoting their machines via extended warranty.

Sponsored

 

[ajdelange]

I just wanted to say, I have a lot of respect for the people who have figured out to meet all of their modern electrical needs through solar with battery backup.

Me too. It is a non trivial problem.

The key is intelligent planning of loads ...

The key is living in one of those all too rare locations where there is consistent daily sunshine year round with a climate mild enough that little, if any, heat is required in winter and little A/C in summer. Under these conditions one's batteries only need to be able to store however much is required to run the establishment for one night and that isn't much. Then there is the real world where most of us live. Intelligent design is certainly key. One doesn't get his hot water from a 150A instant-on heater if he thinks he is going to have to back it up on battery (or generator). One doesn't heat his house with 10 ton heat pumps if he knows he has to run them overnight on battery.

...and figuring out how to live well without needing huge amounts of electricity

I suppose this turns largely on one's definitions of "live well" and "huge" but it is, nonetheless, particularly amusing in a forum dedicated to a new BEV which, if we drive it as much as the average American, will increase our electrical needs by 13.7 kWh per day. That's just about the capacity of 1 Powerwall and given what they cost I consider it "huge".

The early adopters of these techniques and technologies were people who lived off grid but, with falling prices on everything from solar panels to batteries to inverters, more and more people who are wired to the grid can afford to provide for their needs without problematic and noisy generators and the fueling issues that come with it.

Generators aren't particularly noisy (61 db(A) 1m which is I think classed as "normal conversation") nor particularly problematic as long as you change the oil from time to time (and some of my neighbors don't even do that. Now brace yourself, batteries are problematic too.

Now as to fuel, and going back to intelligent design: if you are smart you don't get your hot water from an instant on electric system if you run mainly on solar and want hot water when the utility goes down. You have an instant on gas/propane hot water heater which is also the backup for your heat pumps. And if you are a fussy cook you have a gas cooktop. So the propane guy has to come round to fill the tank for those periodically and fuel for the generator is thereby provided anyway.

Sometimes people don't think through these survival issues. For example, they might think an underground gas line will always be ready to deliver gas to their generator. But the very kind of disruptive events that cause the need for backup power for extended periods of time are the very events that might disrupt gas service. In other words, you are not truly self-sufficient if you are depending upon a gas line or regular trips to a fuel (gas or propane) supplier.

Of course you aren't and very, very few design systems for Armageddon. Most are designed to carry us in comfort through a utility outage of a couple of weeks. The plan for Armageddon for most of us is throw the AR-15 into the fully charged Cybertruck and get out of Dodge.

You have to avoid blow-hards that insist you need a gajillion kW's and weeks of storage capacity just to get by happily. Having enough to meet your daily needs is all that matters. Learning how to conserve, when necessary, really helps lower total system costs.

The more rational among us understand the weather patterns in our areas and how this effects solar production and we have also determined our electrical consumption patterns. We have statistics on power outages in our areas with respect to frequency and duration, have made decisions as to what level of protection we want (Henry David Thoreau for two weeks vs full house) and designed our systems accordingly. In a temperate mesic climatic region it quickly becomes clear that a battery isn't going to cut it for anything other than the Thoreau option and most of us aren't willing to accept that. We have to have a generator and, given that, a battery isn't really of much use.

But there is one aspect to that which bugs me. Last week I used 557 kWh of electricity and generated (from the sun, not the B&S) 762 kWh. I earned $21.44 from the utility for the excess. Now let's suppose the power was out all week. I'd have to generate the 557 kWh (with the B&S) which would cost me $295 in propane. And all the solar would be wasted so I wouldn't get my $21 credit from the utility either. Net loss to me is $316.65. If I had a battery in the system electricity for the week would cost me nothing. But how big would that battery have to be? The sun didn't come out one day that week so I'd need to store at least one day's worth of production (if I wanted to run A/C and please believe me when I say that in the DC area in August one does) and that amounts to about 8 Powerwalls which is about the cost of a CT. To save $316? And how often does the power go out in my area for a week? I think it has happened once in the 33 years we've lived in this house.

So scale me back to the Thoreau level by a factor of 8 to 1 Powerwall and 10 kWh/da in summer. That's 1/3 of the nominal US consumption. I don't doubt that it's possible to do but who wants to live like that? Common sense has to come into it somewhere.

 

[HaulingAss]

agreed....but if we have that kind of event, I am sure nothing and no kind of fuel will be available except for the sun.....that is unless it is covered with ash and smoke from the big one.....

So true. Even the state of forest fires this summer was enough to reduce some peoples production by 50% (or more in the most extreme cases). Of course we can buy ten times as much solar generation today as we could just 10 or so years ago (for the same amount of money). So the more robust systems install surplus generation capacity which simply means it can meet your needs even if the light is reduced by 50% (or even more depending upon how much surplus you want to install). With excess generation capacity there can be productive generation even on cloudy, rainy and smoky days.

I take solace in knowing how to live quite comfortably like the pioneers did. My grandfather was born in 1883, years before most people even dreamed of electricity and many of those people lived wonderfully fulfilling lives without excessive hardship. I wouldn't want to go back to zero electricity but I know how to if necessary. Fortunately, we can live quite luxuriously with only 10-20% of what most people regularly consume if we know what we are doing. It's extremely important in the modern world to have SOME electricity but the utility of that electricity declines with amount.

I get a kick out of those who are planning for the complete breakdown of society. I think some people arm themselves to the hilt and think it would be their chance to finally be somebody important. However, it's unlikely to play out that way, no matter how much they may wish for a survival type situation where their arsenal of guns is the key to their survival. This is just fantasy because in a true disaster type situation a gun is still of very limited utility for actually surviving and living well. Because you are not the only person who has guns - they are more common than cars!

 

[ajdelange]

I take solace in knowing how to live quite comfortably like the pioneers did.

Yes, I remember my father's stories of having his tonsils removed on the kitchen table, siblings dying within the first couple of years of life (weeded out the weak ones), having to crunch through the snow while sick to get to the outhouse in the middle of the night - all those great opportunities we've lost in the modern age.

I get a kick out of those who are planning for the complete breakdown of society. I think some people arm themselves to the hilt and think it would be their chance to finally be somebody important. However, it's unlikely to play out that way, no matter how much they may wish for a survival type situation where their arsenal of guns is the key to their survival. This is just fantasy because in a true disaster type situation a gun is still of very limited utility for actually surviving and living well. Because you are not the only person who has guns - they are more common than cars!

Just as the battery requirement is not deterministic neither is the need for firearms but the rational man understands that having a gun gives him a better chance of survival when everyone else has them than he would have were he the only one who didn't. Plus he understands that unless all the bunny rabbits are radioactive a gun can potentially put food on the table and finally he knows that if everyone has a gun that a .223 cartridge can probably be exchanged for food or something else he needs.

 

[drscot]

I just wanted to say, I have a lot of respect for the people who have figured out to meet all of their modern electrical needs through solar with battery backup. The key is intelligent planning of loads and figuring out how to live well without needing huge amounts of electricity. The early adopters of these techniques and technologies were people who lived off grid but, with falling prices on everything from solar panels to batteries to inverters, more and more people who are wired to the grid can afford to provide for their needs without problematic and noisy generators and the fueling issues that come with it.

Sometimes people don't think through these survival issues. For example, they might think an underground gas line will always be ready to deliver gas to their generator. But the very kind of disruptive events that cause the need for backup power for extended periods of time are the very events that might disrupt gas service. In other words, you are not truly self-sufficient if you are depending upon a gas line or regular trips to a fuel (gas or propane) supplier.

You have to avoid blow-hards that insist you need a gajillion kW's and weeks of storage capacity just to get by happily. Having enough to meet your daily needs is all that matters. Learning how to conserve, when necessary, really helps lower total system costs.

Kudo's to all the early adopters who helped make this possible!

You do have a point about natural gas supply, but nobody ever said "always available". I did say that in 69 years, I have not once experienced a natural gas failure, whereas I have experienced at a minimum a bazillion grid failures, anywhere from hours to days on end. 10 days just from a single ice storm and 10 days from a tornado. Natural gas wasn't disrupted at all. It is reliable. Nobody hinted 100% reliable. Heck, neither is my ticker. I'm putting solar in my home, but I also have a natural gas standby unit for emergency power, for which solar sucks for extended periods like we have had here. There is a much greater likelihood of a lightning strike taking out my solar array here than my standby generator. I'm not sure what all this discussion is about over solar versus natural gas generators. Each fills a different need in their own capacity. I need my right hand as well as my left hand. If not, just whack one of them off (yours of course) so it doesn't get in the way! If the issue is that natural gas is a fossil fuel and not "clean electric", fine, but bring that point up next time you board a commercial aircraft or take a cruise somewhere. There are enough Leonardo DiCaprio and Al Gore hypocrites out there as it is. Like the woman who blasted me for taking semisynthetic antibiotics but didn't mind totally synthetic anesthesia and prophylactic antibiotics for her knee replacement surgery. Come on, toughen up! Walk the walk if you are going to talk the talk!

 

[drscot]

So true. Even the state of forest fires this summer was enough to reduce some peoples production by 50% (or more in the most extreme cases). Of course we can buy ten times as much solar generation today as we could just 10 or so years ago (for the same amount of money). So the more robust systems install surplus generation capacity which simply means it can meet your needs even if the light is reduced by 50% (or even more depending upon how much surplus you want to install). With excess generation capacity there can be productive generation even on cloudy, rainy and smoky days.

I take solace in knowing how to live quite comfortably like the pioneers did. My grandfather was born in 1883, years before most people even dreamed of electricity and many of those people lived wonderfully fulfilling lives without excessive hardship. I wouldn't want to go back to zero electricity but I know how to if necessary. Fortunately, we can live quite luxuriously with only 10-20% of what most people regularly consume if we know what we are doing. It's extremely important in the modern world to have SOME electricity but the utility of that electricity declines with amount.

I get a kick out of those who are planning for the complete breakdown of society. I think some people arm themselves to the hilt and think it would be their chance to finally be somebody important. However, it's unlikely to play out that way, no matter how much they may wish for a survival type situation where their arsenal of guns is the key to their survival. This is just fantasy because in a true disaster type situation a gun is still of very limited utility for actually surviving and living well. Because you are not the only person who has guns - they are more common than cars!

That's right, but people who carry legally and responsibly are not the issue. It is the criminals who prey on the unarmed who are. 911 here takes 45 minutes to get a response here at the fastest. In that time your wife and daughter can be raped and battered by a group of armed thugs while you sit and watch saying "I couldn't do anything! They had guns!" Hell yes they have guns. That's why you better be prepared to defend your family. Right here in my state in broad daylight, a young mother sat in her rocker nursing her baby. A perp walked right in, shot her but missed the baby. Fortunately she lived. Next city over a young woman was stuck in traffic and her ex (who was violating his restraining order) got out of his car, approached her as she panicked while calling 911 and shot her in the head. Don't count on 911 to get there in time. They just collect evidence. They don't even clean up the mess. You have to hire a private service to do that for you. It isn't pretty. I knew one of those professionals. She ended up hanging herself, leaving a mess for someone else to clean up.
Very few plan for the "complete breakdown" of society as you called it. They just prepare for the breakdown of YOUR society. Very few could get out and many shelves were bare with the first Covid wave. People were hoarding toilet paper of all things. I hoarded nothing. I had everything I needed. I am reminded of the tale of the cricket and the ant. I'll take care of my neighbors, but not their neighbors neighbors. That is where personal responsibility comes in. Head to Haiti or Afghanistan right about now for a first hand look. Be prudent, not haughty.

 

[firsttruck]

You do have a point about natural gas supply, but nobody ever said "always available". I did say that in 69 years, I have not once experienced a natural gas failure,

You might want to talk to some people in Texas. Natural gas well heads and pipeline distribution froze.

 

[HaulingAss]

That's right, but people who carry legally and responsibly are not the issue. It is the criminals who prey on the unarmed who are. 911 here takes 45 minutes to get a response here at the fastest. In that time your wife and daughter can be raped and battered by a group of armed thugs while you sit and watch saying "I couldn't do anything! They had guns!" Hell yes they have guns. That's why you better be prepared to defend your family. Right here in my state in broad daylight, a young mother sat in her rocker nursing her baby. A perp walked right in, shot her but missed the baby. Fortunately she lived. Next city over a young woman was stuck in traffic and her ex (who was violating his restraining order) got out of his car, approached her as she panicked while calling 911 and shot her in the head. Don't count on 911 to get there in time. They just collect evidence. They don't even clean up the mess. You have to hire a private service to do that for you. It isn't pretty. I knew one of those professionals. She ended up hanging herself, leaving a mess for someone else to clean up.
Very few plan for the "complete breakdown" of society as you called it. They just prepare for the breakdown of YOUR society. Very few could get out and many shelves were bare with the first Covid wave. People were hoarding toilet paper of all things. I hoarded nothing. I had everything I needed. I am reminded of the tale of the cricket and the ant. I'll take care of my neighbors, but not their neighbors neighbors. That is where personal responsibility comes in. Head to Haiti or Afghanistan right about now for a first hand look. Be prudent, not haughty.

I'm not anti-gun at all. I just think they are rarely the best answer to a problem, at least not one that is likely to impact my life. That's why none of my rifles or shotguns are loaded or placed in strategic places in my home - I'm simply not worried about it.

Different strokes for different folks. My point was I think people tend to over-estimate the utility of guns in general, not that there was never a situation where one might be handy, it's just not as much of a threat as people make it out to be when they describe how "prepped" they are.

People regularly brag about how many thousands of rounds they have as if their most glorious moments on earth will happen when they get in a battle with roving bands of armed bandits and repel them successfully because they are so well prepped. A good marksman would be unlikely to ever put 100 rounds to good use over the course of a lifetime.

 

[ajdelange]

I think that you are missing the fact that the ammunition isn't for Rambo style standoffs. It is for barter.

 

[drscot]

I'm not anti-gun at all. I just think they are rarely the best answer to a problem, at least not one that is likely to impact my life. That's why none of my rifles or shotguns are loaded or placed in strategic places in my home - I'm simply not worried about it.

Different strokes for different folks. My point was I think people tend to over-estimate the utility of guns in general, not that there was never a situation where one might be handy, it's just not as much of a threat as people make it out to be when they describe how "prepped" they are.

People regularly brag about how many thousands of rounds they have as if their most glorious moments on earth will happen when they get in a battle with roving bands of armed bandits and repel them successfully because they are so well prepped. A good marksman would be unlikely to ever put 100 rounds to good use over the course of a lifetime.

A gun is NEVER the "best" answer as you so aptly stated, but sometimes it is the ONLY answer. The .45 ACP 1911 is designed to be carried "cocked and locked", meaning a round in the chamber. It is quite safe with multiple safeties. In more than one occasion, carrying it in the manner in which it was designed to be carried rather than with an empty chamber and having to take the time to rack the slide to chamber a round saved the life of the person carrying it because of lifesaving seconds. I have never had to unholster my firearm and hope never to have to. I am always reminded of the doctor in Killeen Texas who took her aged parents out for an after church Sunday lunch to a Luby's cafeteria in 1991. She thought "I'm not going to need this." and took her handgun out of her purse and put it in the glove compartment of the car. While dining and chatting with her aged parents, a bad guy came in and began shooting the place up and anyone who moved. I guarantee you she was having second thoughts about "not needing" her gun with her false sense of complacency and security. Well the 911 responders eventually arrived, but it was too late for many people. 23 dead and 27 wounded. The "evidence collectors" simply scared the shooter into killing himself. The hapless doctor emerged from behind the overturned table they used for cover only to discover that both her parents were among the dead; but of course, she wasn't going to need her gun that day. Choose to carry or not to carry. Your choice. But if you need one and don't have one, it will be no laughing matter. None of my crowd "brag" about anything as you have repeatedly stated. We quietly carry well concealed. If a perpetrator scouts the place, he won't have a clue which of us will take him out hopefully before he harms an innocent person. Might even save your life or someone in your family. Just as good.
P.S. Just like you, the good doctor wasn't worried about it either. Obviously. She took it out of its strategic location in her purse and will have to live with that miscalculation for the remainder of her life. You don't plan to have a flat tire, but I'll bet you have a spare just in case, or at least a can of "Fix-a-Flat" or some means of inflating a flat tire. Maybe not though. Some people just don't worry about those things. Don't wear seatbelts either if their windows are tinted. What were Clint Eastwood's famous words in Dirty Harry?

 

[drscot]

A gun is NEVER the "best" answer as you so aptly stated, but sometimes it is the ONLY answer. The .45 ACP 1911 is designed to be carried "chambered and locked", meaning a round in the chamber. It is quite safe with multiple safeties. In more than one occasion, carrying it in the manner in which it was designed to be carried rather than with an empty chamber and having to take the time to rack the slide to chamber a round saved the life of the person carrying it because of lifesaving seconds. I have never had to unholster my firearm and hope never to have to. I am always reminded of the doctor in Killeen Texas who took her aged parents out for an after church Sunday lunch to a Luby's cafeteria in 1991. She thought "I'm not going to need this." and took her handgun out of her purse and put it in the glove compartment of the car. While dining and chatting with her aged parents, a bad guy came in and began shooting the place up and anyone who moved. I guarantee you she was having second thoughts about "not needing" her gun with her false sense of complacency and security. Well the 911 responders eventually arrived, but it was too late for many people. 23 dead and 27 wounded. The "evidence collectors" simply scared the shooter into killing himself. The hapless doctor emerged from behind the overturned table they used for cover only to discover that both her parents were among the dead; but of course, she wasn't going to need her gun that day. Choose to carry or not to carry. Your choice. But if you need one and don't have one, it will be no laughing matter. None of my crowd "brag" about anything as you have repeatedly stated. We quietly carry well concealed. If a perpetrator scouts the place, he won't have a clue which of us will take him out hopefully before he harms an innocent person. Might even save your life or someone in your family. Just as good.
P.S. Just like you, the good doctor wasn't worried about it either. Obviously. She took it out of its strategic location in her purse and will have to live with that miscalculation for the remainder of her life. You don't plan to have a flat tire, but I'll bet you have a spare just in case, or at least a can of "Fix-a-Flat" or some means of inflating a flat tire. Maybe not though. Some people just don't worry about those things. Don't wear seatbelts either if their windows are tinted. What were Clint Eastwood's famous words in Dirty Harry?
I had to substitute the word "chambered" for the proper and accepted term. Seems somebody has a vulgar mind.

 

[HaulingAss]

A gun is NEVER the "best" answer as you so aptly stated, but sometimes it is the ONLY answer. The .45 ACP 1911 is designed to be carried "cocked and locked", meaning a round in the chamber. It is quite safe with multiple safeties. In more than one occasion, carrying it in the manner in which it was designed to be carried rather than with an empty chamber and having to take the time to rack the slide to chamber a round saved the life of the person carrying it because of lifesaving seconds. I have never had to unholster my firearm and hope never to have to. I am always reminded of the doctor in Killeen Texas who took her aged parents out for an after church Sunday lunch to a Luby's cafeteria in 1991. She thought "I'm not going to need this." and took her handgun out of her purse and put it in the glove compartment of the car. While dining and chatting with her aged parents, a bad guy came in and began shooting the place up and anyone who moved. I guarantee you she was having second thoughts about "not needing" her gun with her false sense of complacency and security. Well the 911 responders eventually arrived, but it was too late for many people. 23 dead and 27 wounded. The "evidence collectors" simply scared the shooter into killing himself. The hapless doctor emerged from behind the overturned table they used for cover only to discover that both her parents were among the dead; but of course, she wasn't going to need her gun that day. Choose to carry or not to carry. Your choice. But if you need one and don't have one, it will be no laughing matter. None of my crowd "brag" about anything as you have repeatedly stated. We quietly carry well concealed. If a perpetrator scouts the place, he won't have a clue which of us will take him out hopefully before he harms an innocent person. Might even save your life or someone in your family. Just as good.
P.S. Just like you, the good doctor wasn't worried about it either. Obviously. She took it out of its strategic location in her purse and will have to live with that miscalculation for the remainder of her life. You don't plan to have a flat tire, but I'll bet you have a spare just in case, or at least a can of "Fix-a-Flat" or some means of inflating a flat tire. Maybe not though. Some people just don't worry about those things. Don't wear seatbelts either if their windows are tinted. What were Clint Eastwood's famous words in Dirty Harry?

I'm not saying there is zero chance I will never wish I had a gun on me at that moment but looking at it logically, I can say it's a super-low likelihood I'll ever be in an "active shooter" situation as you have described. And, no, I'm not going to carry a silly handgun with me everywhere I go just for that one in 600,000 chance I might wish I had a gun. That would impose a larger inconveniece factor on my life than the small chance the threat justifies.

I guess some people are just more fearful than others. You would have to be more concerned than I am to want to put up with the inconvenience of carrying a firearm at all times. Even when I've been in the wilds of Alaska, with grizzly bears all around, I didn't feel the need to carry a firearm. If it makes you feel better, go ahead and knock yourself out. I like to travel light. And no amount of fear-mongering is going to make me want to put up with personal carry.

 

[HaulingAss]

I think that you are missing the fact that the ammunition isn't for Rambo style standoffs. It is for barter.

It would be better to barter with something you could eat or that could keep you warm. There is so much ammo in America I think it makes a poor unit of exchange. Because if the proverbial sh!t ever hits the fan, there will be no real shortage of ammo.

If you just want units of monetary exchange, gold and silver coins are always good.

 

[ajdelange]

It would be better to barter with something you could eat or that could keep you warm. There is so much ammo in America I think it makes a poor unit of exchange. Because if the proverbial sh!t ever hits the fan, there will be no real shortage of ammo.

Think what you like but those of us with, shall we say, a little more realistic picture of the status quo disagree. Just at the moment you could benefit greatly from a long position in ammunition. Doesn't make much sense to me that the dearth will turn into a surfeit in the event things get worse but who knows?

If you just want units of monetary exchange, gold and silver coins are always good.

Well sure and the prudent man will have the occasional Krugerand and Maple Leaf stashed as well as the .223. i''ve actually had this conversation with my financial adviser.

 

[HaulingAss]

Think what you like but those of us with, shall we say, a little more realistic picture of the status quo disagree. Just at the moment you could benefit greatly from a long position in ammunition. Doesn't make much sense to me that the dearth will turn into a surfeit in the event things get worse but who knows?

Well sure and the prudent man will have the occasional Krugerand and Maple Leaf stashed as well as the .223. i''ve actually had this conversation with my financial adviser.

Yeah, people have been prepping and planning for generations. It's nothing new, the trick is to keep it real. I can't believe some of the stuff I've seen!

The best asset to have in such an event is knowledge. Most preppers I've seen are in for a rude awakening at just how unprepared they really were if their dreamed up scenario actually happens.

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