All electricity equal or not?

[ajdelange]

I have looked at the last 18 months of my usage.....I average 1.24kW per day....I do not plan on running the a/c and charging both cars at the same time.

...I think we could easily get by with a 16, 18 or 20kW generator...

If you keep the cars out of it, and you should, then a 16 kW generator is overkill. 80% of 16 kW (you want to keep your load less than 80%) is 12.6 kW and you will, with an average draw of 1.24 kW, exceed 12.6 kW only 0.0043% of the time (less than a minute in a 2 week outage). That said I think I would be inclined to go with a 20 kW unit and consider the extra 4 kW margin with which I could charge the car if I wanted to or needed to.

......if that happens we will be worrying more about living than whether we have lights....plenty of water though with a 32,000 gal pool....so I guess she is set...hahahah

How many rounds of .223?

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[happy intruder]

If you keep the cars out of it, and you should, then a 16 kW generator is overkill. 80% of 16 kW (you want to keep your load less than 80%) is 12.6 kW and you will, with an average draw of 1.24 kW, exceed 12.6 kW only 0.0043% of the time (less than a minute in a 2 week outage). That said I think I would be inclined to go with a 20 kW unit and consider the extra 4 kW margin with which I could charge the car if I wanted to or needed to.



How many rounds of .223?

I have 2-AR-15s legally, but Ca is putting a damper on me.....and I have 1500 rounds thanks to my cousin in Georgia when he passed.....he let me the rounds in his will

 

[happy intruder]

I have 2-AR-15s legally, but Ca is putting a damper on me.....and I have 1500 rounds thanks to my cousin in Georgia when he passed.....he let me the rounds in his will

If you keep the cars out of it, and you should, then a 16 kW generator is overkill. 80% of 16 kW (you want to keep your load less than 80%) is 12.6 kW and you will, with an average draw of 1.24 kW, exceed 12.6 kW only 0.0043% of the time (less than a minute in a 2 week outage). That said I think I would be inclined to go with a 20 kW unit and consider the extra 4 kW margin with which I could charge the car if I wanted to or needed to.



How many rounds of .223?

I wanted a 20kW as my first choice but in speaking to Generac, they hav discontinued that model......so I am left with the 18kW or a 22kW.....being able to charge both cars at different times is good.....but.....thats why I am leaning to the 22kW.....I know its overkill, but like I said my wife freaks out every time she sees one of our cities burning and wanted to be ready....especially if someone or some country attacks our grid.....

 

[drscot]

I have been looking at Generac for about 2 months now....they discontinued the 20kW so I only have access to 22kW, 24kW or 18kW.....they had a "authorized dealer" call me and make appointment to come over........I live in Irvine and have a 99% sun on the roof....when he got here, I showed where I wanted it ti go.....first thing he said after introductions was, you need a 24kW unit....well my house is s story and 2450 sqft.....The average temp is 75 and our neighborhood grid goes out 3 to 4 times durning the summer because it was built incorrectly......our cut-de-sac is the only only that has no power.....they know the problem, but it would cost about 2.5 million to fix, so they dont so it....

so the installer, looked around and I have a gas run of about 8 feet and the electrical is about 30ft going up thru the garage and exiting on the side of the house and across roof line and down to Generac.....after he looked around and I said I wanted the automatic transfer switch located next to the panel where the line went into the garage.....no issue.....I asked him to quote me for all three generations and include a line item for electrical and gas plumbing.....I know the generators range from $4895 to $5300......

two days later, I get a quote for $19875, 21,000 and 22500.....he did not itemize like I asked and gave me only 10 days to respond.....I asked him what the install costs are and have never heard from him after several emails and calls.....I almost wet my pants laughing.....

needless to say I called Generac and explained this....the I got a survey....I filled out the survey and got a call last week from their customer service department....I told them the story again and was told they would get me another contractor to call me.....have heard nothing.....

I can get the 22kW from Lowes for $4875 - 10% for special buy, then get 10% veteran discount.....pick up at store or have delivered.....

I really like the Generac product and they will give me 7yr warranty.....but I do not recommend their contractors....both time I spoke with them, they were in utter disbelief that there contractors were raping the customer.....

so, I will just wait and see what happens

May I make a suggestion? See who "Angie's List" recommends for a contractor for that job. Their suggestion was spot on. Can't guarantee yours, BUT, If you like, I will give you the contact information on my contractor. Maybe they can give you a quality referral. Mine was $8500 installed for the 20Kw 5 years ago. They got my peak loads from the electric company in order to properly size my unit. My peak usage was never more than 17Kw. The 20 gave me reserve capacity. The promotion I got at that time was a 10 year warranty and first year maintenance free. The contractor was the most professional ever. Not a single complaint. There were others I could have gone with. Glad I didn't. Even the gas company trenched and ran the gas line over 100 ft and then even under my driveway for FREE. Generac is the way to go. You obviously had a shyster quoting you. Don't quit. Check reviews of everyone who claims to install Generac generators. Having installed two is a whole lot different than having installed two hundred. I don't know about Lowes. My Generac never misses a beat for 5 years going now. I'm very happy with it. It doesn't replace solar and solar doesn't replace it. They are complementary or symbiotic I would say. With your infrastructure as with mine, they are necessary for comfort. Don't give up on the Generac. Check Angie's List for starters. Call Generac back and send an email. They may be temporarily inundated after the Texas meltdown. Stay in touch. I'll help all I can. I don't know what my contractor can do as far a a referral, but I need to schedule my annual maintenance . Are you in Irvine Texas or Irvine California?

 

[drscot]

I wanted a 20kW as my first choice but in speaking to Generac, they hav discontinued that model......so I am left with the 18kW or a 22kW.....being able to charge both cars at different times is good.....but.....thats why I am leaning to the 22kW.....I know its overkill, but like I said my wife freaks out every time she sees one of our cities burning and wanted to be ready....especially if someone or some country attacks our grid.....

It is only overkill if your peak load suggests so. My peak load on my home was 17Kw. A 20 Kw Generac gave me a comfortable reserve capacity. Your electric company can tell you what your peak load over a one year period was. that is how we properly sized my unit. I don't have to worry about a hairdryer being plugged in or the microwave gumming up the works. It is "Katie bar the door!" because I have all the power I could ever need. and I know what reserve capacity I have available. Don't guess. Get the measurements and size appropriately. Which is worse? Undersizing or oversizing and wasting money?

 

[happy intruder]

May I make a suggestion? See who "Angie's List" recommends for a contractor for that job. Their suggestion was spot on. Can't guarantee yours, BUT, If you like, I will give you the contact information on my contractor. Maybe they can give you a quality referral. Mine was $8500 installed for the 20Kw 5 years ago. They got my peak loads from the electric company in order to properly size my unit. My peak usage was never more than 17Kw. The 20 gave me reserve capacity. The promotion I got at that time was a 10 year warranty and first year maintenance free. The contractor was the most professional ever. Not a single complaint. There were others I could have gone with. Glad I didn't. Even the gas company trenched and ran the gas line over 100 ft and then even under my driveway for FREE. Generac is the way to go. You obviously had a shyster quoting you. Don't quit. Check reviews of everyone who claims to install Generac generators. Having installed two is a whole lot different than having installed two hundred. I don't know about Lowes. My Generac never misses a beat for 5 years going now. I'm very happy with it. It doesn't replace solar and solar doesn't replace it. They are complementary or symbiotic I would say. With your infrastructure as with mine, they are necessary for comfort. Don't give up on the Generac. Check Angie's List for starters. Call Generac back and send an email. They may be temporarily inundated after the Texas meltdown. Stay in touch. I'll help all I can. I don't know what my contractor can do as far a a referral, but I need to schedule my annual maintenance . Are you in Irvine Texas or Irvine California?

thanks you so much....I an in Irvine, California.....I spoke 2 weeks ago with a Generac rep who read my survey...He promised to get back with me but have not heard anything as of this writing.....I love Generac but I cannot get the 20kW because to has been discontinued......so I am looking at the 22kW......they have told me that I can get a 7yr warranty with the world wide access for when we travel.....but they have certainly been slow.....If you dont mind, and you are in my area, please share with me the contractor you use for the install and I will make contact......BTW, the $8500 you spent, was that the cost of generator and the install cost?......thanks

 

[drscot]

thanks you so much....I an in Irvine, California.....I spoke 2 weeks ago with a Generac rep who read my survey...He promised to get back with me but have not heard anything as of this writing.....I love Generac but I cannot get the 20kW because to has been discontinued......so I am looking at the 22kW......they have told me that I can get a 7yr warranty with the world wide access for when we travel.....but they have certainly been slow.....If you dont mind, and you are in my area, please share with me the contractor you use for the install and I will make contact......BTW, the $8500 you spent, was that the cost of generator and the install cost?......thanks

I'm near Fort Smith Arkansas. The $8,500 was turnkey. Generator installed. I didn't even have a meter at my house because it was all electric. Your guy was trying to scalp you. My seller/installer may be able to help you with a referral, but I found him through Angie's List. Matlock Electric. 479-646-6083. They also installed one the next block over to me just like mine. They restored my faith in competence and professionalism. Let me know how things go for you. I didn't get the worldwide monitoring app. Seemed not very useful to me. What are you going to do? It turns on when your power goes off and turns off when it comes back on. It starts up the same time each week to run a diagnostic program (like clockwork) and colored lights let you know if there is a problem or not. Never had a single problem. Let me know how things turn out. I know nothing about the Lowes unit, but my hunch is that is won't have near the reputation of the Generac nor the expertise for installation and service. I could not ask for better, and this is not a paid endorsement.

 

[drscot]

thanks you so much....I an in Irvine, California.....I spoke 2 weeks ago with a Generac rep who read my survey...He promised to get back with me but have not heard anything as of this writing.....I love Generac but I cannot get the 20kW because to has been discontinued......so I am looking at the 22kW......they have told me that I can get a 7yr warranty with the world wide access for when we travel.....but they have certainly been slow.....If you dont mind, and you are in my area, please share with me the contractor you use for the install and I will make contact......BTW, the $8500 you spent, was that the cost of generator and the install cost?......thanks

I just spoke to the contractor's office to schedule my annual maintenance. They are going to search for a reliable and reputable seller/installer for you. They said it may take some time but they will call or text me. I didn't have your direct contact info to give them. If I don't hear back in a week or two I will call them back for you. My maintenance is scheduled for 7 Sept. It has run usually under $300. $200 minimum.

 

[happy intruder]

I'm near Fort Smith Arkansas. The $8,500 was turnkey. Generator installed. I didn't even have a meter at my house because it was all electric. Your guy was trying to scalp you. My seller/installer may be able to help you with a referral, but I found him through Angie's List. Matlock Electric. 479-646-6083. They also installed one the next block over to me just like mine. They restored my faith in competence and professionalism. Let me know how things go for you. I didn't get the worldwide monitoring app. Seemed not very useful to me. What are you going to do? It turns on when your power goes off and turns off when it comes back on. It starts up the same time each week to run a diagnostic program (like clockwork) and colored lights let you know if there is a problem or not. Never had a single problem. Let me know how things turn out. I know nothing about the Lowes unit, but my hunch is that is won't have near the reputation of the Generac nor the expertise for installation and service. I could not ask for better, and this is not a paid endorsement.

Lowes is actually selling there Generac 22kW......I ships directly from Generac.....my issue is getting a competent installed who wont try and rape me

 

[ajdelange]

It is only overkill if your peak load suggests so. My peak load on my home was 17Kw. A 20 Kw Generac gave me a comfortable reserve capacity. Your electric company can tell you what your peak load over a one year period was. that is how we properly sized my unit.

Your electric utility has little interest in your peak load but they do have interest in your "peak demand". This is your highest moving average load within a 30 minute window. Thus if, for example, you were drawing a continuous 7 kW on some winter's night and a 20 kW E-heater kicked in for 15 minutes your 30 minute demand would be the e-heater's 30 minute average (on 15 minutes, off 15 minutes averages 10 kW) plus the 7 kW baseline for a total of 17 kW which is what they would record and bill you for if you were subject to demand billing. But your peak demand was actually 27 kW. In No. 44 I posted some actual statistics. Over the history's time span the power company measured my peak demand as 15.7 kW (on 18 Mar) but my peak consumption was 27.6 kW(on 2 Apr).

Don't guess. Get the measurements and size appropriately.

I absolutely agree but who, other than a super nerd like me is willing to do that? You really need a year's worth of data - at least. And even then you don't have a definite answer. At best I can tell our man in CA that the probability of him exceeding 16 kW load (the max for a 20 kW genny) is exp(-20/1.25) = 2.76 E-6 which means the expected value of the time he will exceed that is a quarter of a second per day. With more refined statistics (all I have is his reported 1.25 kW average consumption - is it more in the winter or more is the summer?) I could refine he recommendation.

Which is worse? Undersizing or oversizing and wasting money?

You tell me. As an engineer I've been trained to build in margin. My view on this wasn't always the same as the accountants'. To me a genset is properly sized if it never trips it's breaker.

I know nothing about the Lowes unit, but my hunch is that is won't have near the reputation of the Generac nor the expertise for installation and service.

You are a brave man. Lowe's carries Generac, Briggs and Stratton and Kohler. Generac is sort of the VHS of generators. They sell more than anyone else but the Betamax (represented by the other two) are the better generators. I know professionals that won't touch Generac. Don't get me wrong - they (the generators) have their warts too and keep in mind that a pro's bias may be as much influenced by the way the factory services him as by the reliability of the units but in general a good electrician wants to do well by his customers and that's why it is so important to find a good one. IMO a poor electrician is more likely to align himself with the top selling brand in order to increase his sales but a good one builds his reputation by doing good work. He evaluates the various manufacturers ans offers his customers what he thinks will best serve them. That's why I think our correspondent should find a good electrician and ask him which brand he recommends. Unfortunately I haven't a clue as to what to suggest on how to do this. Referrals is probably the best but the people doing the referrals on the net lists are often totally unqualified to recommend an electrician especially the ones that pose as legitimate members to recommend themselves.

 

[ajdelange]

Lowes is actually selling there Generac 22kW......I ships directly from Generac.....my issue is getting a competent installed who wont try and rape me

Do note that a good electrician is likely to charge more than one with a lesser reputation.

Also note that my last post was not intended to imply that you should avoid Generac (though I do).

 

[drscot]

Your electric utility has little interest in your peak load but they do have interest in your "peak demand". This is your highest moving average load within a 30 minute window. Thus if, for example, you were drawing a continuous 7 kW on some winter's night and a 20 kW E-heater kicked in for 15 minutes your 30 minute demand would be the e-heater's 30 minute average (on 156 minutes, off 15 minutes averages 10 kW) plus the 7 kW baseline for a total of 17 kW which is what they would record and bill you for if you were subject to demand billing. But your peak demand was actually 27 kW. In No. 44 I posted some actual statistics. Over the history's time span the power company measured my peak demand as 15.7 kW (on 18 Mar) but my peak consumption was 27.6 kW(on 2 Apr).

I absolutely agree but who, other than a super nerd like me is willing to do that? You really need a year's worth of data - at least. And even then you don't have a definite answer. At best I can tell our man in CA that the probability of him exceeding 16 kW load (the max for a 20 kW genny) is exp(-20/1.25) = 2.76 E-6 which means the expected value of the time he will exceed that is a quarter of a second per day. With more refined statistics (all I have is his reported 1.25 kW average consumption - is it more in the winter or more is the summer?) I could refine he recommendation.
You tell me. As an engineer I've been trained to build in margin. My view on this wasn't always the same as the accountants'. To me a genset is properly sized if it never trips it's breaker.

You are a brave man. Lowe's carries Generac, Briggs and Stratton and Kohler. Generac is sort of the VHS of generators. They sell more than anyone else but the Betamax (represented by the other two) are the better generators. I know professionals that won't touch Generac. Don't get me wrong - they (the generators) have their warts too and keep in mind that a pro's bias may be as much influenced by the way the factory services him as by the reliability of the units but in general a good electrician wants to do well by his customers and that's why it is so important to find a good one. IMO a poor electrician is more likely to align himself with the top selling brand in order to increase his sales but a good one builds his reputation by doing good work. He evaluates the various manufacturers ans offers his customers what he thinks will best serve them. That's why I think our correspondent should find a good electrician and ask him which brand he recommends. Unfortunately I haven't a clue as to what to suggest on how to do this. Referrals is probably the best but the people doing the referrals on the net lists are often totally unqualified to recommend an electrician especially the ones that pose as legitimate members to recommend themselves.

I generally agree with what you said. I also use warranty to evaluate quality of merchandise. I got 10 years (promotional) on my Generac. If a company gives a significantly less warranty (Generac's standard is 5 years but they almost always have promotions to 7 years), there has to be a reason why they have less confidence in their own products. You would have to be able to get inside someone's head to determine why they "wouldn't touch Generac". Their issues may or may not be well-founded. Why did Kia come out with a 10 year 100,000 mile warranty on their cars when industry standard was 36 months or 36,000 miles, and for what was deemed to be a "disposable car" at that? I've never owned one, but everyone I know who has loves theirs and says they just run and run and run. Marketing ploy? Big gamble for a disposable car if indeed it was. Hi-Point firearms. Made in America, lifetime 100% and transferable warranty, and they shoot and shoot and shoot despite tremendous abuse and they are dirt cheap (as far as guns go). Warranty says a lot about what you are getting in my opinion.

 

[drscot]

I generally agree with what you said. I also use warranty to evaluate quality of merchandise. I got 10 years (promotional) on my Generac. If a company gives a significantly less warranty (Generac's standard is 5 years but they almost always have promotions to 7 years), there has to be a reason why they have less confidence in their own products. You would have to be able to get inside someone's head to determine why they "wouldn't touch Generac". Their issues may or may not be well-founded. Why did Kia come out with a 10 year 100,000 mile warranty on their cars when industry standard was 36 months or 36,000 miles, and for what was deemed to be a "disposable car" at that? I've never owned one, but everyone I know who has loves theirs and says they just run and run and run. Marketing ploy? Big gamble for a disposable car if indeed it was. Hi-Point firearms. Made in America, lifetime 100% and transferable warranty, and they shoot and shoot and shoot despite tremendous abuse and they are dirt cheap (as far as guns go). Warranty says a lot about what you are getting in my opinion.

And you are correct again: Betamax was the better format of the two. Unfortunately, if fell to the "also ran" category. Primarily I think because people preferred longer recording capability over quality. Lowes? I have bought a number of major appliances there and got some stinkers too, with their repairman telling me it was out of warranty and too costly to fix and to buy a new one which I did. It turned out that the particular part in question that was so expensive had a 10 year warranty instead of a 5 year like the rest of the unit. I lost that one. And load versus demand, for me it is a matter of semantics. We all have our areas of expertise and our areas of opining, do we not?

 

[HaulingAss]

I just wanted to say, I have a lot of respect for the people who have figured out to meet all of their modern electrical needs through solar with battery backup. The key is intelligent planning of loads and figuring out how to live well without needing huge amounts of electricity. The early adopters of these techniques and technologies were people who lived off grid but, with falling prices on everything from solar panels to batteries to inverters, more and more people who are wired to the grid can afford to provide for their needs without problematic and noisy generators and the fueling issues that come with it.

Sometimes people don't think through these survival issues. For example, they might think an underground gas line will always be ready to deliver gas to their generator. But the very kind of disruptive events that cause the need for backup power for extended periods of time are the very events that might disrupt gas service. In other words, you are not truly self-sufficient if you are depending upon a gas line or regular trips to a fuel (gas or propane) supplier.

You have to avoid blow-hards that insist you need a gajillion kW's and weeks of storage capacity just to get by happily. Having enough to meet your daily needs is all that matters. Learning how to conserve, when necessary, really helps lower total system costs.

Kudo's to all the early adopters who helped make this possible!

 

[happy intruder]

I just wanted to say, I have a lot of respect for the people who have figured out to meet all of their modern electrical needs through solar with battery backup. The key is intelligent planning of loads and figuring out how to live well without needing huge amounts of electricity. The early adopters of these techniques and technologies were people who lived off grid but, with falling prices on everything from solar panels to batteries to inverters, more and more people who are wired to the grid can afford to provide for their needs without problematic and noisy generators and the fueling issues that come with it.

Sometimes people don't think through these survival issues. For example, they might think an underground gas line will always be ready to deliver gas to their generator. But the very kind of disruptive events that cause the need for backup power for extended periods of time are the very events that might disrupt gas service. In other words, you are not truly self-sufficient if you are depending upon a gas line or regular trips to a fuel (gas or propane) supplier.

You have to avoid blow-hards that insist you need a gajillion kW's and weeks of storage capacity just to get by happily. Having enough to meet your daily needs is all that matters. Learning how to conserve, when necessary, really helps lower total system costs.

Kudo's to all the early adopters who helped make this possible!

agreed....but if we have that kind of event, I am sure nothing and no kind of fuel will be available except for the sun.....that is unless it is covered with ash and smoke from the big one.....

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