Toyota BZ4X BEV with steer-by-wire by mid 2022, maybe Tesla add steer-by-wire to Cybertruck?

[Crissa]

FSD doesn't require drive-by-wire. No more than it was required for autopilot in airplanes.

-Crissa

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[Deleted member 12457]

Sorry, you kept bringing up human error made me thing you had drive by wire confused with FSD.



I stated direct drive is intrinsically safer than drive by wire. One of the reasons I listed was drive by wire has more points of failure. The biggest example is if all power is lost you will lose all control of steering in a drive by wire system. You may lose power assist in a direct drive system. But you still have control. I’ve had an engine stall in a vehicle with power assist. I was still able to safely control the vehicle.

Stating something is intrinsically safer isn’t the same as trying to justify not having something. Walking is intrinsically safer than flying. Just because I stated that doesn’t mean I’m trying to justify not flying.

I feel this discussion is getting lost in semantics. If we were able to all be in the same room and discuss in real time I think this would go much smoother. I also think we’d all learn from it and enjoy the conversation. Thank you for the debate.

Semantics are always a problem with everything. I haven't seen any statistics stating (might have missed one by @firsttruck) drive-by-wire is not safe and causes accidents. I didn't know anyone had even built a drive-by-wire system yet (need to watch the video @firsttruck included). This is where semantics gets in the way of actual development. People saying one thing is better than another when one of those things is brand new without enough, or any, use. Steer-by-wire is one of those. Same with brake-by-wire. Many cars have been built with an accelerator that isn't attached by linkage to a carburetor or fuel injector. This is standard on EVs. New developments in vehicle technology happen all the time and I'm ready to embrace them when they have had time to prove themselves.

I spent the majority of my employment lasting 40 years working with computerized publishing systems. Yes, there were computerized typesetting systems before Macs and PCs. I started off repairing counting keyboards (have to have been there to understand what this means) by replacing transistors. We don't do this anymore for the vast majority of electronic devices and I like that. Computers run a lot better now than they did in the 70's and 80's. My first car was my Dad's 1964 Chevy II Nova. It ran very well primarily because it had almost no extra mechanical devices. 194 cu in straight 6 with single barrel carburetor. Drum brakes, AM radio, nothing fancy. Also not that much to repair. Today's cars are a crazy mess and you need a computer degree to work on them properly. I don't even change my own oil anymore because it's easier and safer to have a shop/dealer find the oil filter and properly dispose of the used oil. Things change, usually for the better, and I am hoping my CT will have some of the same advanced operational features as the newest jet, commercial or military. I used to enjoy driving but not as much anymore with all the nutjobs driving like they're in the Indy 500 or Nascar. Can't take a leisurely drive anymore without getting run into or having to follow someone older than me who shouldn't be behind the wheel.

Happy Halloween!

 

[GnarlyDudeLive]

Possibly very nominal but a drive by wire system I would think is going to consume more electrons than a manual system, so something to ponder on. While I have no objections to drive by wire, I also have no objections to taking baby steps when it comes to safety.

I would think that it would be technically possible to have both systems in a vehicle being that autopilot/FSD servo(s) controls the steering column. If the steering wheel/yoke was disengaged from the column and then relied on a digital reading to control the existing servo's, I don't see why both options cant exist at once honestly. I would absolutely want some force feedback though if drive by wire was engaged.... ?‍

Maybe in a hybrid system like above, the servo's could do some regen for us when manual driving, LOL. Build them arm muscles up.

 

[Crissa]

Possibly very nominal but a drive by wire system I would think is going to consume more electrons than a manual system, so something to ponder on.

Since both will apply power steering, that's not a given. The additional linkages for direct manual connection may make steering take more energy total. That's why they got rid of them in aircraft.

-Crissa

 

[Deleted member 12457]

https://www.cybertruckownersclub.co...th-new-development-team-at-austin.1794/page-2

I guess this is old news to many of you.

 

[Crissa]

https://www.cybertruckownersclub.co...th-new-development-team-at-austin.1794/page-2

I guess this is old news to many of you.

Yeah, but that would be after the initial Cybertruck orders.

-Crissa

 

[Deleted member 12457]

Have a question, maybe a poll but not a real one, for all current Tesla owners (my older brother has a model 3 and has had various EVs before this and his adult daughter has one--as I state in my vehicle list, I don't have a Tesla and have never owned an EV.

Question 1: Has your Tesla ever had an electrical problem that caused it to be non-functional?

Question 2: Have you had a non-Tesla EV or hybrid that has had an electrical problem that caused it to be non-functional?

Question 3: How old is your computer(s) and when was the last time it totally failed? By totally failed, I mean a simple reboot or power-cycle didn't resurrect it. List make, model, age. I don't want to get into fights over Mac vs PC, I'd rather hear comments about older computers vs newer computers and whether newer ones have less failures than older ones. Hopefully you can see where I'm going with this question as it relates to the stability and longevity of Tesla's EV electrical designs.

(disclaimer: I've had Apple products since 1989, specified $3-$4M worth of Macs for work, bought the original iMac on day 1 but am slowing down a bit on buying the latest because I'm living on retirement funds. I did buy the M1 MacBook Air a month after it was released. Talk about a new generation of computers. I see Tesla's vehicle and FSD computer systems having a major impact on their ability to function properly. I am not so sure about other manufacturer's systems. This should be on a different thread if it isn't already.)

 

[Ogre]

Question 1: Has your Tesla ever had an electrical problem that caused it to be non-functional?

No but it’s 7 months old.

Q2: Had bug electrical problems with a Volkswagen within first year of ownership.

Q3: Most computer failures I’ve had have been mechanical in nature or software related. Newer computers mostly fail from damage or mechanical failures from fans or keyboards going out. Droppage food for n keyboards spills.

 

[firsttruck]

I didn't know anyone had even built a drive-by-wire system yet
....

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Wikipedia.org - Drive_by_wire > Steer_by_wire > production vehicle
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drive_by_wire#Steer_by_wire

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The first production vehicle to implement this was the 2014-2016 Infiniti Q50 with Infiniti's Direct Adaptive Steering ,[5] but after negative comments they retrofitted the traditional hydraulic steering.[6] Its implementation in road vehicles is limited by concerns over reliability although it has been demonstrated in several concept vehicles such as ThyssenKrupp Presta Steering's Mercedes-Benz Unimog ( models with Variopilot option, 2010 - present ), General Motors' Hy-wire and Sequel, Saabs Prometheus and the Mazda Ryuga. A rear wheel SbW system by Delphi called Quadrasteer is used on some 2002-2005 Chevy Silverado / GMC Sierra with Quadrasteer pickup trucks, 2002-2005 Chevy Suburban / GMC Yukon XL but has had limited commercial success.

The most common place to find steer-by-wire in a production vehicle is actually construction vehicles or off-roading. Steer-by-wire must be very tough to survive the environment these things can be in.


On the 2020 24 Hours of Nürburgring, a Porsche Cayman GT4 equipped with a steer-by-wire system from Schaeffler Paravan Technologie finished the race in 2nd place on its class (29th overall). On the 2021 race, a Mercedes-AMG GT3 using the same system finished 16th overall.[7][8]


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Mercedes-Benz Unimog models with Variopilot has been available since 2010 & is still in production ( not concept).

GMC/Chevy Quadrasteer option was available for some production vehicles in 2014-2016 ( not concept).

Mercedes-Benz Unimog ( models with Variopilot option, 2010 - present ).
A rear wheel SbW system by Delphi called Quadrasteer is used on some 2002-2005 Chevy Silverado / GMC Sierra with Quadrasteer pickup trucks, 2002-2005 Chevy Suburban / GMC Yukon XL.


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The Mercedes-Benz Unimog Has the Most Incredible Trick Steering Wheel
What other truck can swap from left-hand-drive to right-hand-drive in 30 seconds?
Mercedes-Benz Unimog is a go-to for adventurers worldwide, over-landing from one continent to the next with the ability to ford waterways and even climb volcanoes.
Mercedes-Benz Unimog ( models with Variopilot option, 2010 - present )
By Caleb Jacobs May 10, 2020
https://www.thedrive.com/news/33392...-has-the-most-incredible-trick-steering-wheel

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*** Not production yet

Besides Toyota's planned 2022 BZ4X BEV with steer-by-wire, Toyota's luxury brand Lexus also plans for some impressive steer-by-wire and more

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Lexus Electrified - Developing Direct4, Steer by Wire and Shimoyama.
May 24, 2021
Discover Lexus


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[Crissa]

Question 1: Has your Tesla ever had an electrical problem that caused it to be non-functional?

Question 2: Have you had a non-Tesla EV or hybrid that has had an electrical problem that caused it to be non-functional?

Question 3: How old is your computer(s) and when was the last time it totally failed? By totally failed, I mean a simple reboot or power-cycle didn't resurrect it. List make, model, age. I don't want to get into fights over Mac vs PC, I'd rather hear comments about older computers vs newer computers and whether newer ones have less failures than older ones. Hopefully you can see where I'm going with this question as it relates to the stability and longevity of Tesla's EV electrical designs.

1) It's happened to someone, which is what matters. It comes to a stop because the motors seize up, tho. Super-rare.

2) Yes. Again, it comes to a stop because regen stops forward momentum.
(I have had the computer system crash on my Mazda and that took out power steering! It was a hairy ride on a potholed freeway in heavy traffic to the shoulder so I could reboot.)
ABS is by law required to have a backup power supply if traction power fails, which is one use of the accessory battery.

3) I use a 2013 macbook Air and I think I've black screened it maybe four times? (And I will not count how many times I reboot the PC... ugh.)

-Crissa

 

[Dids]

Semantics are always a problem with everything. I haven't seen any statistics stating (might have missed one by @firsttruck) drive-by-wire is not safe and causes accidents. I didn't know anyone had even built a drive-by-wire system yet (need to watch the video @firsttruck included). This is where semantics gets in the way of actual development. People saying one thing is better than another when one of those things is brand new without enough, or any, use. Steer-by-wire is one of those. Same with brake-by-wire. Many cars have been built with an accelerator that isn't attached by linkage to a carburetor or fuel injector. This is standard on EVs. New developments in vehicle technology happen all the time and I'm ready to embrace them when they have had time to prove themselves.

I spent the majority of my employment lasting 40 years working with computerized publishing systems. Yes, there were computerized typesetting systems before Macs and PCs. I started off repairing counting keyboards (have to have been there to understand what this means) by replacing transistors. We don't do this anymore for the vast majority of electronic devices and I like that. Computers run a lot better now than they did in the 70's and 80's. My first car was my Dad's 1964 Chevy II Nova. It ran very well primarily because it had almost no extra mechanical devices. 194 cu in straight 6 with single barrel carburetor. Drum brakes, AM radio, nothing fancy. Also not that much to repair. Today's cars are a crazy mess and you need a computer degree to work on them properly. I don't even change my own oil anymore because it's easier and safer to have a shop/dealer find the oil filter and properly dispose of the used oil. Things change, usually for the better, and I am hoping my CT will have some of the same advanced operational features as the newest jet, commercial or military. I used to enjoy driving but not as much anymore with all the nutjobs driving like they're in the Indy 500 or Nascar. Can't take a leisurely drive anymore without getting run into or having to follow someone older than me who shouldn't be behind the wheel.

Happy Halloween!

2017 Infinity Q50 was sold in USA with a steer by wire. It was later recalled and modern ones got an upgraded system. It had a backup mechanical linkage system. Nissan calls it DAS. Direct Adaptive Steering . So certainly steer by wire is allowed by regulations or infinity would not have been allowed to sell the car. The fact that it was a poor system is only an engineering challenge.
I believe as always that CT is intended to be a steer by wire.

 

[Ogre]

I believe as always that CT is intended to be a steer by wire.

This would solve/ shelve so many issues.

Also… 1 fewer place to be sealed for water intrusion. Makes us one step closer to Aquatruck.

 

[firsttruck]

2017 Infinity Q50 was sold in USA with a steer by wire. It was later recalled and modern ones got an upgraded system. It had a backup mechanical linkage system. Nissan calls it DAS. Direct Adaptive Steering . So certainly steer by wire is allowed by regulations or infinity would not have been allowed to sell the car. The fact that it was a poor system is only an engineering challenge.
I believe as always that CT is intended to be a steer by wire.

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Yes, looks like Infiniti did introduce a second or maybe even a third generation versions of the Direct Adaptive Steering (DAS) option.
Still available on many new models of Infiniti SUVs, 2022 models of Infiniti Q50, QX50, QX55, Q60, QX60.

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2021 QX50 Safety, Performance & Features | INFINITI USA
https://www.infinitiusa.com/vehicles/crossovers/qx50/features.html

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Direct Adaptive Steering
Directional Precision
INFINITI’s exclusive Direct Adaptive Steering™ technology eliminates the constant movement of traditional mechanical designs. The system can automatically adjust and digitally enhance steering input from the driver up to 1,000 times per second providing incredible precision and control, and a unique, customizable feel for the road.

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Infiniti Direct Adaptive Steering (DAS) One Year Review, Conclusion GOOD
Jan 9, 2019
KayDro Technologies

 

[drift]

Seems like needless complexity and weight. Remember Elons' opinion that the best part is no part.

 

[Ogre]

Autopilot is already computer controlled steering, they could easily lop off the whole steering column and have autopilot control the steering directly without the steering column. Drive by wire is just the simple additional step of giving the operator a digital steering wheel which tells the computer which way and how much to turn.

The trickiest part of drive-by-wire is convincing the regulators you’ve figured out how to make it never fail. You have to have: A controller that never crashes or has a redundant counterpart. Likewise whatever controls the linkage cannot lose power.

This is something I can see Toyota doing as good as or better than Tesla. Toyota understands this kind of driver vehicle interface quite well.

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