Toyota BZ4X BEV with steer-by-wire by mid 2022, maybe Tesla add steer-by-wire to Cybertruck?

[firsttruck]

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2009 - Mando Steering Systems (South Korea), Installed in the World’s Most Prestigious Vehicles
Mando has succeeded in independently developing C-EPS steering systems for the
first time in Korea and the fourth in the world in 2009
https://www.mando.com/eng/rnd/rnd02.jsp

2019 - Mando exports steer-by-wire system to U.S. EV startup Canoo ...
South Korean auto parts company Mando Corp. struck a deal to provide its proprietary steer-by-wire system to U.S. electric vehicle startup Canoo, becoming the ...
Oct 21, 2019
https://www.mk.co.kr › 2019/10

Korean auto parts players to shine as carmakers go all in on EVs
Mando supply Steer by Wire to US EV startups Canoo Inc.
By Jae-Yeon Ko
Feb 08, 2021
https://www.kedglobal.com/newsView/ked202102080004

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2021 - A Solution for a Fail-Operational Control of Steer-by-Wire System without Mechanical Backup Connection
SAE International
2021-04-06
https://www.sae.org/publications/technical-papers/content/2021-01-0931/


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Nexteer - Steer-by-Wire: Electrification & the Convergence of Megatrends
Aug 18, 2021
https://www.nexteer.com/blog/steer-by-wire-electrification-the-convergence-of-megatrends/

.....
On the safety side, SbW enhances stability control, improves braking distances, and enhances automatic emergency steering (AES) and other features. On the performance side, Nexteer’s software experts tailor the steering feel and responsiveness (from luxury to sporty) and even customize steering feel to an OEM’s brand.

.....
Standardization of Cross-Platform Components: Cost- & Time-Savings

In addition to packaging flexibility, SbW creates new possibilities for efficiency through parts standardization for automakers. Today, different steering ratios within a single vehicle platform require different steering system designs and different steering gear (physical hardware). With SbW’s variable steering ratio, Nexteer uses software and algorithms to systematically adjust steering ratio and optimize performance – without the need for multiple steering gear sizes. As a result, OEMs get a tailored steering feel while standardizing and reducing part numbers.

Without a mechanical connection to the steering wheel, SbW further reduces the need for multiple part numbers by enabling automakers to use the same parts for both right- and left-hand drive vehicles across different regions.

Enabling A New Era of Safety & Performance for EVs & ICEs

Nexteer expects SbW to become the future, dominant steering technology for both EVs and internal combustion engine (ICE) vehicles because it opens new possibilities for safety, performance and packaging enhancements.


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Sponsored

 

[Bill906]

Biggest hurdle is U.S. government regulation.

Many other countries allow side cameras to replace side mirrors and that camera tech is old now yet still not allowed in U.S. :-(

There are suppliers out there if Tesla wants to buy steer-by-wire

Street-legal steer-by-wire system from Schaeffler Paravan
https://www.schaeffler-paravan.de/en/products/space-drive-system/steer-by-wire/

Schaeffler AG - Drive-by-wire technology
https://www.schaeffler.com/content....ce/steer_by_wire_technology/steer_by_wire.jsp


By-Wire Cars Turn the Corner
Replacing a car’s hydraulic systems with wires, microcontrollers, and computers promises better safety and handling — but will drivers buy it?
By Elizabeth Bretz
02 Apr 2001
https://spectrum.ieee.org/bywire-cars-turn-the-corner

The “because of governent regulation“ argument is the same as saying because of safety. The purpose of government regulation is to keep the public safe.

Drive by wire is intrinsically less safe than direct control. There are more points of failure and more complex components. Drive by wire can be engineered safer with engineering, risk management, experimentation etc. But that needs to be tested and approved.

Yes large airplanes and the military have been using fly by wire for a long time. But it’s a completely different risk assessment than private land vehicles. Pilots must be trained on the systems and how to handle emergenies. Aircraft intrinsically have some redundancy built in, for example If ailerons get stuck, you can still control direction with the other control surfaces (mainly rudder in this case), granted poorly. Once your steering wheels freeze up, you have no other way to control the direction of a typical land vehicle. The military typically has a lower risk threshold to meet. They will typically accept more risk in exchange for bigger, better, faster, stronger etc. fighter jet. Just because the military deem something acceptable doesn’t mean it should be accepted in the civilian world.

Yo also point out there are street legal options out there. So my question stands, Why do you think Tesla doesn’t do drive by wire?

 

[firsttruck]

The “because of government regulation“ argument is the same as saying because of safety. The purpose of government regulation is to keep the public safe.

Drive by wire is intrinsically less safe than direct control. There are more points of failure and more complex components. Drive by wire can be engineered safer with engineering, risk management, experimentation etc. But that needs to be tested and approved.

Yes large airplanes and the military have been using fly by wire for a long time. But it’s a completely different risk assessment than private land vehicles. Pilots must be trained on the systems and how to handle emergencies. Aircraft intrinsically have some redundancy built in, for example If ailerons get stuck, you can still control direction with the other control surfaces (mainly rudder in this case), granted poorly. Once your steering wheels freeze up, you have no other way to control the direction of a typical land vehicle. The military typically has a lower risk threshold to meet. They will typically accept more risk in exchange for bigger, better, faster, stronger etc. fighter jet. Just because the military deem something acceptable doesn’t mean it should be accepted in the civilian world.

Yo also point out there are street legal options out there. So my question stands, Why do you think Tesla doesn’t do drive by wire?

The “because of government regulation“ argument is the same as saying because of safety. The purpose of government regulation is to keep the public safe.

In theory & in school teaching that might be true but in real-life there are many cases where keeping the public safe is not the primary reason but is the covering excuse.

I already gave a current example. Cameras & LCD screens for many years have clearly been better & safer than side mirror & rear mirror.

Right now the U.S. Congress is trying to pass a infrastructure/climate change bill that helps with adoption of EV & slow global climate change and the bill gives 30-50% more to GM/Ford union made vehicles when Tesla non-union highly paid workers cars are much better for the environment & also Teslas are safer cars. No one has presented a single sentence of research that GM/Ford union made vehicles are better than Tesla non-union highly paid workers cars.

Many police departments have a motto of "serve & protect" but many people forget to ask "serve who" & "protect who".

.....
Drive by wire is intrinsically less safe than direct control. There are more points of failure and more complex components. Drive by wire can be engineered safer with engineering, risk management, experimentation etc. But that needs to be tested and approved.
........

Old style direct mechanical has to be engineered , risk management, experimentation etc too. Tested and approved.

Even with good engineering direct mechanical still also has some safety disadvantages too.

Even with mechanical it is not old 1940s heavy duty reliable. Most cars have power steering which added many failure points (including a PUMP!) but overall most have not complained about failure risk.
Even if power steering did not jam, just the increased turning effort from no assist can cause some drivers to crash because they can not respond fast enough to the change of control or the driver does not have the strength to move the steering wheel.

So failure points on modern power steering might not be that different than steer-by-wire.

But this discussing is really moot. Once you have a computer primarily doing the controlling you have a "by-wire".
FSD & robo-taxis with no steering wheels are close. There will be no one qualified to use a direct mechanical.

This is missing the forest for the trees.

Steer-by-wire is only one component of a system (the vehicle).

Even if steer-by-wire component is a little less reliable than a mechanical linkage, the computers, & steer-by-wire enables a system FSD & robotaxi that will be orders of magnitude better than human direct control driver and the FSD/Robo-taxis will same millions of lives every year.

 

[CyberT]

If you get more space in the back, does it matter?

-Crissa

It may not matter to some but it does to me. My secret is that I place all of my stinky/smelly take-out food in the frunk which is sealed and does not spread that smell into the cabin keeping the inside a new car smell.

Plus with most EV's out on the market have a frunk. Why be one of the only ones that don't?

 

[Deleted member 12457]

The “because of governent regulation“ argument is the same as saying because of safety. The purpose of government regulation is to keep the public safe.

Drive by wire is intrinsically less safe than direct control. There are more points of failure and more complex components. Drive by wire can be engineered safer with engineering, risk management, experimentation etc. But that needs to be tested and approved.

Yes large airplanes and the military have been using fly by wire for a long time. But it’s a completely different risk assessment than private land vehicles. Pilots must be trained on the systems and how to handle emergenies. Aircraft intrinsically have some redundancy built in, for example If ailerons get stuck, you can still control direction with the other control surfaces (mainly rudder in this case), granted poorly. Once your steering wheels freeze up, you have no other way to control the direction of a typical land vehicle. The military typically has a lower risk threshold to meet. They will typically accept more risk in exchange for bigger, better, faster, stronger etc. fighter jet. Just because the military deem something acceptable doesn’t mean it should be accepted in the civilian world.

Yo also point out there are street legal options out there. So my question stands, Why do you think Tesla doesn’t do drive by wire?

Government and safety don't always mean the same thing. All you have to do is look at the stuff coming from Missy about FSD. The part you've left out is who stands to benefit from keeping a technology and who benefits form new technology.

Direct control of vehicles cause all vehicle accidents so how is the government providing safe vehicles???? The person behind the wheel is what causes the majority of accidents followed by equipment failure. I would like to see a car using drive-by-wire and see what its point of failures are compared to direct control. Again, the driver commits the majority of steering errors and having something like FSD, etc., control more of the steering functions can only help the driver, not hurt them.

 

[happy intruder]

gee......we fly-by-wire.......we should be able to drive-by-wire.......that seems to be a cheaper and more cost effective way to make the CT.....maybe after 200k production models they will be able to cut it in

 

[Ogre]

Be interesting to see what these look like and what pricing looks like (and how many they can produce!). Toyota is way behind right now.

 

[Bill906]

I would like to see a car using drive-by-wire and see what its point of failures are compared to direct control.

Drive by wire does not mean FSD. FSD requires drive by wire, but drive by wire does not require FSD. In a non-FSD drive by wire system you would still have the same human error in controlling the vehicle.

Drive by wire will most likely use electric powered servos, actuators, motors what ever you want to call them, to steer the wheels. If a catastrophic electrical failure occurred, you would lose all ability to steer. If ALL electrical power was lost in my current direct control vehicle I would still be able to steer and stop the vehicle.

 

[Bill906]

In theory & in school teaching that might be true but in real-life there are many cases where keeping the public safe is not the primary reason but is the covering excuse.

I already gave a current example. Cameras & LCD screens for many years have clearly been better & safer than side mirror & rear mirror.

Right now the U.S. Congress is trying to pass a infrastructure/climate change bill that helps with adoption of EV & slow global climate change and the bill gives 30-50% more to GM/Ford union made vehicles when Tesla non-union highly paid workers cars are much better for the environment & also Teslas are safer cars. No one has presented a single sentence of research that GM/Ford union made vehicles are better than Tesla non-union highly paid workers cars.

Many police departments have a motto of "serve & protect" but many people forget to ask "serve who" & "protect who".





Old style direct mechanical has to be engineered , risk management, experimentation etc too. Tested and approved.

Even with good engineering direct mechanical still also has some safety disadvantages too.

Even with mechanical it is not old 1940s heavy duty reliable. Most cars have power steering which added many failure points (including a PUMP!) but overall most have not complained about failure risk.
Even if power steering did not jam, just the increased turning effort from no assist can cause some drivers to crash because they can not respond fast enough to the change of control or the driver does not have the strength to move the steering wheel.

So failure points on modern power steering might not be that different than steer-by-wire.

But this discussing is really moot. Once you have a computer primarily doing the controlling you have a "by-wire".
FSD & robo-taxis with no steering wheels are close. There will be no one qualified to use a direct mechanical.

This is missing the forest for the trees.

Steer-by-wire is only one component of a system (the vehicle).

Even if steer-by-wire component is a little less reliable than a mechanical linkage, the computers, & steer-by-wire enables a system FSD & robotaxi that will be orders of magnitude better than human direct control driver and the FSD/Robo-taxis will same millions of lives every year.

I feel like we’ve missed the point of my original question to argue government corruption vs. safety along with direct control vs. fly by wire safety.

If I understand your argument correctly the reason Tesla doesn’t use steer by wire for the front wheels is because of the corrupt government regulations. I do not believe that is true, but it’s not the point I was getting at.

Do you agree that my following assumptions are probably correct?

1. The CT will not use steer by wire to control the front wheels. Front wheel steering will be done by conventional direct control.
2. The all wheel steering CT will use steer by wire for the rear wheels.

If you agree my assumptions are probably correct, why does government regulation (safety or corruption based) apply only to the front wheels?

 

[Tinker71]

I feel like we’ve missed the point of my original question to argue government corruption vs. safety along with direct control vs. fly by wire safety.

If I understand your argument correctly the reason Tesla doesn’t use steer by wire for the front wheels is because of the corrupt government regulations. I do not believe that is true, but it’s not the point I was getting at.

Do you agree that my following assumptions are probably correct?

1. The CT will not use steer by wire to control the front wheels. Front wheel steering will be done by conventional direct control.
2. The all wheel steering CT will use steer by wire for the rear wheels.

If you agree my assumptions are probably correct, why does government regulation (safety or corruption based) apply only to the front wheels?

I think your numbered points are accurate considering the rear wheels will likely do different things at different speeds or selection criteria. If I recall the degree of turning will be much less than the front. If something goes haywire it would not necessarily be catastrophic.

As far as government corruption, I don't get the hate. Government "your neighbor" that happens to work for the people is not corrupt. Government is often slow, risk averse , bound by regulation and congress, and unimaginative, but I don't think it is evil or corrupt except for a few individuals.... usually elected or appointed. Democrates (myself included, because Republicans can't put a decent candidate forward or look past Trump) owe the last election cycle to unions. They are going to try to look after them. Good pay, and a voice are not evil either.

 

[Deleted member 12457]

Drive by wire does not mean FSD. FSD requires drive by wire, but drive by wire does not require FSD. In a non-FSD drive by wire system you would still have the same human error in controlling the vehicle.

Drive by wire will most likely use electric powered servos, actuators, motors what ever you want to call them, to steer the wheels. If a catastrophic electrical failure occurred, you would lose all ability to steer. If ALL electrical power was lost in my current direct control vehicle I would still be able to steer and stop the vehicle.

Did I specifically say drive-by-wire requires FSD? I said FSD could control more of the driving like in robo-taxis, which could end up helping all Teslas drive better and safer.

You're trying to justify not having drive-by-wire by saying an electrical failure can cause you to crash while not accepting the fact mechanical things go wrong with cars all the time causing crashes. EVs lose all electrical capabilities and the car stops. Mechanical cars lose all electrical and the engine doesn't fire so it stops (car computers do almost all the engine controlling, no power no engine). Same thing happens. As for steering and brakes, all cars come today with vacuum assisted steering and brakes. Lose engine power and you have a difficult time steering and braking (no power steering and no power brakes). If you're driving at night in any type of car and you have an electrical failure, you can't see (very well) and will probably crash. Doesn't matter if you have mechanical systems or not.

 

[Bill906]

Did I specifically say drive-by-wire requires FSD?

Sorry, you kept bringing up human error made me thing you had drive by wire confused with FSD.

You're trying to justify not having drive-by-wire by saying an electrical failure can cause you to crash while not accepting the fact mechanical things go wrong with cars all the time causing crashes.

I stated direct drive is intrinsically safer than drive by wire. One of the reasons I listed was drive by wire has more points of failure. The biggest example is if all power is lost you will lose all control of steering in a drive by wire system. You may lose power assist in a direct drive system. But you still have control. I’ve had an engine stall in a vehicle with power assist. I was still able to safely control the vehicle.

Stating something is intrinsically safer isn’t the same as trying to justify not having something. Walking is intrinsically safer than flying. Just because I stated that doesn’t mean I’m trying to justify not flying.

I feel this discussion is getting lost in semantics. If we were able to all be in the same room and discuss in real time I think this would go much smoother. I also think we’d all learn from it and enjoy the conversation. Thank you for the debate.

 

[firsttruck]

gee......we fly-by-wire.......we should be able to drive-by-wire.......that seems to be a cheaper and more cost effective way to make the CT.....maybe after 200k production models they will be able to cut it in

Once Elon confirmed Cybertruck would have RWS (rear wheel steering), using steer-by-wire becomes even more cost effective and reduces number of different components needed.
Rear wheel steering can really only be done with steer-by-wire.

Especially for dual motor AWD, if front used steer-by-wire. almost the entire front-end suspension (most components) could be used in the rear suspension.
Great cost saving economy of scale for those components.
Simplification of assembly tooling.
Simplification of assembly labor steps.

 

[happy intruder]

Once Elon confirmed Cybertruck would have RWS (rear wheel steering), using steer-by-wire becomes even more cost effective and reduces number of different components needed.
Rear wheel steering can really only be done with steer-by-wire.

Especially for dual motor AWD, if front used steer-by-wire. almost the entire front-end suspension (most components) could be used in the rear suspension.
Great cost saving economy of scale for those components.
Simplification of assembly tooling.
Simplification of assembly labor steps.

but will it result I a cost savings for everyone? or will it be an option or come standard

 

[firsttruck]

Sorry, you kept bringing up human error made me thing you had drive by wire confused with FSD.


I stated direct drive is intrinsically safer than drive by wire. One of the reasons I listed was drive by wire has more points of failure. The biggest example is if all power is lost you will lose all control of steering in a drive by wire system. You may lose power assist in a direct drive system. But you still have control. I’ve had an engine stall in a vehicle with power assist. I was still able to safely control the vehicle.

Stating something is intrinsically safer isn’t the same as trying to justify not having something. Walking is intrinsically safer than flying. Just because I stated that doesn’t mean I’m trying to justify not flying.

I feel this discussion is getting lost in semantics. If we were able to all be in the same room and discuss in real time I think this would go much smoother. I also think we’d all learn from it and enjoy the conversation. Thank you for the debate.

Direct drive mechanical (without power steering) is intrinsically safer than drive by wire but most cars sold in U.S. today are not direct drive mechanical (without power steering).
The most popular vehicles are SUV and light pickup trucks and almost all of these have power steering.

Accidents & crashes have happened because of loss of power steering function.
U.S. National Highway Traffic Safety Administration says loss of power steering assist can
lead to a crash.

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GM Recalls 1 Million Pickup Trucks & SUVs Worldwide Over Power Steering Failure
Thirty accidents, but no deaths, have been linked to the problem.
2015 models of the Cadillac Escalade, Chevrolet Silverado 1500, Suburban and Tahoe and GMC Sierra and Yukon.
By Alexa Lardieri
Sept. 13, 2018
https://www.usnews.com/news/nationa...-trucks-worldwide-over-power-steering-failure

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General Motors recalls multiple SUVs over power steering failure
General Motors has issued a recall for 26,847 SUVs over a potential loss in power steering assist, which could increase steering effort and result in a crash. This GM recall includes:
2021 Cadillac Escalade
2021 Cadillac Escalade ESV
2021 Chevrolet Suburban
2021 Chevrolet Tahoe
2021 GMC Yukon
2021 GMC Yukon XL
Report by Vishal Venugopal
August 3, 2021
https://www.motorsafety.org/general-motors-recalls-multiple-suvs-over-power-steering-failure/

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Ford recalls 1.4 million vehicles for power steering problems
Massive call back of cars, crossovers, sport utility vehicles.
As of mid-April, Ford said it was aware of 15 accidents.
Ford said it will recall 195,527 Explorer SUVs in North America from the 2011 to 2013 model years and 915,216 Ford Escape and Mercury Mariner SUVs from model years 2008 to 2011 on power steering issues.
May 29, 2014
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-ford-recall-idUSKBN0E91YE20140529

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Ford recalls 423K vehicles for power-steering failure
Four minor crashes are linked to the problem
following vehicles are being called back: 2011-13 Ford Taurus and Flex, and Lincoln MKS and MKT; certain 2011-12 Ford Fusion and Lincoln MKZ vehicles; and some 2011 Mercury Milans.
David Shepardson
Detroit News Washington Bureau
2015 May 27
https://www.detroitnews.com/story/business/autos/ford/2015/05/27/ford-recalls/28002489/

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Cadillacs, Camaros, Corvettes Recalled for Power Steering Problem
GM says the problem may be caused by an electrical short circuit
General Motors is recalling 26,772 cars, including certain 2016–2018 Cadillac CTS sedans, 2017 Chevrolet Corvette and Camaro coupes, and 2017 Cadillac ATS sedans.
The electric power-steering assist may fail while the vehicle is in motion. If power steering is lost, drivers may have to steer with more effort. If this happens unexpectedly, it may lead to a crash, especially at low speeds, according to the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration.
By Keith Barry
March 14, 2019
https://www.consumerreports.org/car...orvettes-recalled-for-power-steering-problem/

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Paul Walker's car crash attributed to Porsche's power steering fluid leak
Business Standard
December 3, 2013
https://www.business-standard.com/a...power-steering-fluid-leak-113120300225_1.html

Porsche in Paul Walker crash was going only 55 mph, lawsuit claims
Paul Walker and his friend Roger Rodas were killed in a car crash Nov. 30, 2013.
LA Times
13 may. 2014
https://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-paul-walker-lawsuit-rodas-20140513-story.html

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