Dodge Ram will be better than Ford F-150 Lightning

Bill906

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There is another point to argue in this discussion. The bigger battery will charge faster than the smaller battery for the same amount of energy.
For example the amount of time needed to put 300 miles into a 300 mile battery will take longer than putting 300 miles into a 400 mile battery.

 

Crissa

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There is another point to argue in this discussion. The bigger battery will charge faster than the smaller battery for the same amount of energy.
For example the amount of time needed to put 300 miles into a 300 mile battery will take longer than putting 300 miles into a 400 mile battery.
While that's true, it's only at specific break points and travel distances. Highway interchange charge points like at Bend won't see a benefit of bigger batteries really.

Bigger batteries also have the problem of being more expensive and fewer cars on the road with the same number of cells built. That slows adopting and spread of charge points.

-Crissa
 

jerhenderson

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Obviously a bigger battery takes longer to charge. But I'm talking about super chargers here, not destination charging. Big battery means you are more likely to make your trip WITHOUT using a super charger. If range was 1 mile, you'd need a charger on every corner. If range was 1000 miles you'd almost never need a super charger. I don't know why you would say no.

Here in Canada the distances are vast, charging network is limited, and cold weather kills range.
where in Canada are you? I'm a fellow canuck and there are a lot of chargers in my neck of BC.
 

jerhenderson

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This cracks me up. So many people have bought Model 3 or Model Y while waiting for the Cybertruck. It's like a reverse add-on sale.
Question about that - are you keeping the M3 when you get your CT or are you selling it / trading it in? If you aren't keeping it, do you anticipate a financial loss in that eventual exchange?
 

Ogre

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Question about that - are you keeping the M3 when you get your CT or are you selling it / trading it in? If you aren't keeping it, do you anticipate a financial loss in that eventual exchange?
I have a Model Y. I haven't decided if I'm keeping it or not. There are 2 of us so there will be a second car, might sell it for something more affordable like the Arcimoto.

Seems like right now used Model Ys are in high demand and I might be able to get nearly as much for it as I paid. (I bought when the base price was $49k for the LR so getting a new one is $3000 more now). In 9-18 months when I expect my Cybertruck... who knows what it'll look like.
 


Challeco

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Whether the Cybertruck is a success or not will be long since decided by 2024 when they launch.

There should be more than half a million on the road by then, maybe a full million?
I hope the market is full of quality EV options. My opinion of GM's offerings is tepid, and I still see this as a playground for the wealthy and incorporated. So, my hope is tattered and wheezing. But alive it remains. I think, once the Cybertruck is FiNalLy in full production, the rest of the market will quit goofing off and get serious. I doubt the FUD that says Ford and Chevy will go bankrupt. Too many wealthy people are invested. But, if the reputation of the different brands get embarrassed, my belief is they will put innovation of their drive systems and batteries ahead of cup holders and in-cabin toys.
 

Challeco

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Question about that - are you keeping the M3 when you get your CT or are you selling it / trading it in? If you aren't keeping it, do you anticipate a financial loss in that eventual exchange?
I know this wasn't directed at me. But, I plan on keeping our Model 3 when I buy the Cybertruck. I will sell my F250 and my Dakota. I even have the tickle of a plan to sell the hybrid for a full electric (used or new). Also, if I can convince my better half to part with her super car, I would like to upgrade to a long range Model Y for her to drive.
 

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I hope the market is full of quality EV options. My opinion of GM's offerings is tepid, and I still see this as a playground for the wealthy and incorporated. So, my hope is tattered and wheezing. But alive it remains. I think, once the Cybertruck is FiNalLy in full production, the rest of the market will quit goofing off and get serious. I doubt the FUD that says Ford and Chevy will go bankrupt. Too many wealthy people are invested. But, if the reputation of the different brands get embarrassed, my belief is they will put innovation of their drive systems and batteries ahead of cup holders and in-cabin toys.
I think Ford and GM are going to struggle.

They have a ton of debt on assets which are becoming obsolete very very quickly.

Their ties to both unions and the dealership model make them far less capable of changing quickly. Both of them have laid out plans which involve selling ICE vehicles for another decade and their path to profitability without their ICE product lines is very tenuous.

I’m not saying they *will* go bankrupt. But I wouldn’t be surprised if they did.
 

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Challeco

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GM already went bankrupt once and it happened less than 14 years ago.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_Chapter_11_reorganization

Are there many more wealthy people invested in GM today than before?

The challenges GM faces with today's EV transition are much larger than when GM went bankrupt the last time.
I agree completely with the facts. I just remember the Terror and concern we had, as a nation(media storm) when GM and the rest of the Automakers were going under during the crash of 2008. The response from our government was a gentle scolding and a lot of financial coddling. Yes, they will default on their obligations. But, I still doubt they are going to dissolve. There is still too much entanglement for the shell game to be stopped.
I think Ford and GM are going to struggle.

They have a ton of debt on assets which are becoming obsolete very very quickly.

Their ties to both unions and the dealership model make them far less capable of changing quickly. Both of them have laid out plans which involve selling ICE vehicles for another decade and their path to profitability without their ICE product lines is very tenuous.

I’m not saying they *will* go bankrupt. But I wouldn’t be surprised if they did.
I agree with them struggling. But, until those obsoletes are no longer demanded there are thousands of corporations that are interconnected to them that are going to fight to keep them in business. The automakers aren't monoliths like Tesla is trying to be. There is a light side and a dark side to vertical integration. Tesla is almost a stand alone business. Ford, GM, Stellantis, etc. are entangled. I am not against this entanglement, nor am I against Unions. In fact, I think Tesla should unionize. As it is, regardless of the FUD of corruption, the workers at Tesla are at the whim of the management for their benefits. If the bottom line isn't what the bean counters want it to be, then the first sacrifices to the balance sheet will be those who have no power to resist.
I also have no doubt that EV's are going to dominate and eliminate the I.C.E. vehicles. The only thing standing in the way of electrification is greed, not entanglement or Unions.
 


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I agree with them struggling. But, until those obsoletes are no longer demanded there are thousands of corporations that are interconnected to them that are going to fight to keep them in business. The automakers aren't monoliths like Tesla is trying to be. There is a light side and a dark side to vertical integration. Tesla is almost a stand alone business. Ford, GM, Stellantis, etc. are entangled. I am not against this entanglement, nor am I against Unions. In fact, I think Tesla should unionize. As it is, regardless of the FUD of corruption, the workers at Tesla are at the whim of the management for their benefits. If the bottom line isn't what the bean counters want it to be, then the first sacrifices to the balance sheet will be those who have no power to resist.
I also have no doubt that EV's are going to dominate and eliminate the I.C.E. vehicles. The only thing standing in the way of electrification is greed, not entanglement or Unions.
This isn’t meant as an anti-union screed. Just pointing out the challenges they add to this process.


Union shops tend to create a structured workspace. Having well defined roles and pay structures protects workers. That is not bad in and of-itself, but it makes unionized workforces resistant to change. In this case it is going to make it a lot harder for GM & Ford to pivot. It doesn’t take malfeasance on the unions parts for them to be in the way of change, but a union shop has constraints a non-union one does.

When you have a structure in place that makes it difficult to eliminate a position or reassign employees to a different role, it is by nature going to make a big change like this more difficult. There aren’t a lot of muffler welders needed on an EV assembly line.

On top of that, Tesla has far more automated assembly lines which means being competitive with Tesla is likely going to result in large numbers of lay-offs.


Don’t want to wrangle whether Tesla should be unionized or not, that’s a separate topic (which I don’t have a strong opinion on).
 

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This isn’t meant as an anti-union screed. Just pointing out the challenges they add to this process.


Union shops tend to create a structured workspace. Having well defined roles and pay structures protects workers. That is not bad in and of-itself, but it makes unionized workforces resistant to change. In this case it is going to make it a lot harder for GM & Ford to pivot. It doesn’t take malfeasance on the unions parts for them to be in the way of change, but a union shop has constraints a non-union one does.

When you have a structure in place that makes it difficult to eliminate a position or reassign employees to a different role, it is by nature going to make a big change like this more difficult. There aren’t a lot of muffler welders needed on an EV assembly line.

On top of that, Tesla has far more automated assembly lines which means being competitive with Tesla is likely going to result in large numbers of lay-offs.


Don’t want to wrangle whether Tesla should be unionized or not, that’s a separate topic (which I don’t have a strong opinion on).

Yea, workplaces get the workforce they deserve in most cases. I have worked union jobs for the majority of my life. Unions provide an opportunity to have some input. If a company is run well the workers have that input and are listened to as well. When it does not happen then it is in the best interest of the employees to join a or form a union.

The Tesla model is, so far pretty receptive to workers. I know several at space X that are very happy with how the work space functions.

You are right that the automation makes it more of a challenge in some ways. Automation is coming for all jobs at some point. Unless our culture comes to grip with that there will be lots of upheaval.
 

Ogre

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The whole automation question is a whole other angle.

Tesla bought an automation company in order to build their “Machine that builds the machine”. There isn’t a ton of this sort of expertise at building factories at this kind of scale.

It’s a whole other angle of competitiveness.
 

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In the end I think it is a good thing that automation can relieve the most dangerousness and drudgery of work. The danger to our society is, then how do people make a living? How do we share the wealth created by a system that no longer needs human labor. There will always be some jobs but if AI can do stock trades and do the critical thinking needed, there will be no job that cannot be automated.
 

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In the end I think it is a good thing that automation can relieve the most dangerousness and drudgery of work. The danger to our society is, then how do people make a living? How do we share the wealth created by a system that no longer needs human labor. There will always be some jobs but if AI can do stock trades and do the critical thinking needed, there will be no job that cannot be automated.
This is why I love Star Trek. It gives a possible answer to your question. A goal to shoot for.

 

 
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