Ford is serious - 2025 T3 next gen TN BlueOval build/battery/recycle

[cvalue13]

All that aside, I just don't see how Ford would have more problems with a new product line than Tesla would have with a new product line.

but the point of this discussion was to scrutinize the assertion that Ford *is* having problems. so it would be assuming the conclusion to say, essentially, "despite all the above i still don't see why they're having problems."

i only see people suggest that Ford's problems are indicated by eg "they loose $60K bev" or "they arent producing a lot of Lightnings" etc.

but none of those indices are self-evident of any problem, absent a suite of unfounded assumptions and biases. those indices *Are* however, completely consistent with normal-course accounting and business decisions of a manufacturing company plodding along as planned.

which isn't to say Ford *isnt* having problems - it's just that people are pointing toward erroneous or indeterminate asserts to support that Ford *is*

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[CyberGus]

From the thread title:

Ford is serious

 

[CyberGus]

There is no reason for Ford to have less efficient processes than Tesla other than Tradition. I suppose there's a fine line between Tradition and Stubbornness.

I'm not an export in the auto industry nor in manufacturing, but as a DeLorean owner I've read much about John DeLorean and his experiences as an executive.

One of the reasons he chose to start his own company was the practice of "model years", which he felt was unethical. Problems found on the line would have solutions deferred until the next model year, in part to keep from disrupting the line, but also to enhance the value of the next model year. He ran his DeLorean factory with an agile mindset: solutions would be implemented immediately.

This is the way Tesla runs their manufacturing. The engineers go right down to the line with the factory workers, which is unheard of. Changes are rolled in constantly. This is how they are able to rapidly add features, reduce costs, and correct problems.

Remember Munro's exasperation at tearing down the MachE's thermal system? It's a patchwork of hoses and clamps and connectors, and that's all a function of how Ford manages their engineering: a mandate to use off-the-shelf parts, engineers separated from manufacturing (and often each other!) and a reluctance to change processes mid-year.

If Ford (or anyone really) wants to keep up with Tesla, they'll need to change their hearts and minds before they can even begin to tackle the way they've done business for 100 years.

 

[TyPope]

but the point of this discussion was to scrutinize the assertion that Ford *is* having problems. so it would be assuming the conclusion to say, essentially, "despite all the above i still don't see why they're having problems."

i only see people suggest that Ford's problems are indicated by eg "they loose $60K bev" or "they arent producing a lot of Lightnings" etc.

but none of those indices are self-evident of any problem, absent a suite of unfounded assumptions and biases. those indices *Are* however, completely consistent with normal-course accounting and business decisions of a manufacturing company plodding along as planned.

which isn't to say Ford *isnt* having problems - it's just that people are pointing toward erroneous or indeterminate asserts to support that Ford *is*

Okay. That's fair. Maybe Ford isn't having problems. The Maverick I ordered in the first 2 minutes that the order bank opened in September of 2022 is now scheduled to be built in September of 2023, almost 1 full year after I put in the order. I should have gotten mine last November based on when I ordered compared to others. I get the irony of complaining that Ford took a year to make my truck when Tesla... Well, I knew the CT was going to have to be built after the factory. Ford's inability to build 90,000 vehicles on an already established production line is just bonkers to me.

The first fully completed Tesla Model Y rolled off the line at Giga Texas in the last week of August 2021 under trial production.
On May 9, 2023, Gigafactory Texas reached a run rate of 5,000 units a week.
In the past 2 years, ford has ramped up to produce 9,649 per month (as of April). Less than half of what Tesla managed to ramp up to in the same amount of time.

 

[cvalue13]

The Maverick I ordered

yeah sorry, I don’t really follow the Maverick or mean to be speaking towards it’s situation

for me this all revolves around the quips around the Model e BU and specifically the off hand comment about losing money on each vehicle

 

[TyPope]

yeah sorry, I don’t really follow the Maverick or mean to be speaking towards it’s situation

for me this all revolves around the quips around the Model e BU and specifically the off hand comment about losing money on each vehicle

Copy. I was trying to explain why I think Ford may be having issues more widespread than just their primary EVs as the Maverick also has Hybrid batteries. Maybe I'm not seeing something correctly. I respect your opinion in the forum here and will cease airing my opinion on Ford's possible issues.
I'm a huge Ford fan though you wouldn't know that here... BUT, I have built motors in 4 different Fords... '65 Mustang, '85 Mustang, '79 Mercury Capri, and a '60 Falcon... I've also had 9 trucks from F-150 through F-450... Anyway, I DO hope Ford gets their act together and I DO hope the Stock takes off. Aside from Tesla, Ford is #2 in my porfolio... I had Ford in there before Tesla was a thing.

 

[Crissa]

Come on, Crissa... almost ALL processes in place can be used with the Lightning. Steel suppliers, Aluminum suppliers, suspension line, tire line, wheel line, frame line, BIW, BIB... Tweaking required but Ford knows how to change configurations between model years.

No.
The vast majority of the truck, by weight, is new components. The vast majority of components, by number, were eliminated.

No more engine, no more transmission. The cooling system is completely different. The software is completely different.

Add those changes to the 'all new models lose money at first' and you're losing massive amounts of money.

The idea that the legacy manufacturers could leverage their knowledge to manufacture engines and turn it to electric motors was misleading. That battery pack is the heart of an EV, and legacy had no idea (and many had no plan) how to make one.

-Crissa

 

[FutureBoy]

That battery pack is the heart of an EV, and legacy had no idea (and many had no plan) how to make one.

To be fair... Legacy auto knew / knows a lot about 12V lead acid batteries. And to that end they even got to the point where they built the GM EV1 around a lead acid battery pack.

But yes, newer EVs use completely different chemistries. Also all new hardware and software built into the battery packs.

If it were not for the EV1, I'd say that using lead acid batteries was a horrible technology for EVs. Just look at every other EV from the 70s on up till Tesla came along. But I actually experienced the EV1 and it was a pretty decent vehicle.

So instead of blaming the lack of legacy auto's ABILITY to create good (they don't even really have to meet or beat Tesla) EVs, I would say that they lack the incentive and desire to do so. If they really wanted to make good EVs they could if given enough time and the right motivation. But as demonstrated with the EV1 and the lack of anything even remotely comparable to it in the past, the only reason they are half attempting to make EVs now is because Tesla is eating their lunch. It is do or die at this point. Will they survive? Many doubt it.

 

[TyPope]

No.
The vast majority of the truck, by weight, is new components. The vast majority of components, by number, were eliminated.

No more engine, no more transmission. The cooling system is completely different. The software is completely different.

Add those changes to the 'all new models lose money at first' and you're losing massive amounts of money.

The idea that the legacy manufacturers could leverage their knowledge to manufacture engines and turn it to electric motors was misleading. That battery pack is the heart of an EV, and legacy has no idea how to make one.

-Crissa

I agree that every single panel and part of the truck is new. Okay, maybe a fastener here and there were reused. I don't think I made my point very well though and that's my fault.

What I was trying to say is that there are few, if any, components in the Lightning that Ford has not already made similar versions of. Ford has made every component on the Lightning in some form already. They are changing processes, not inventing new processes for every aspect of the truck. Is it hard? Yes. Is it ground breaking for Ford? No. Should they have an easier time shifting from the F-150 to the Lightning than Tesla does from the Model Y to the Cybertruck? Absolutely.

It would be odd to think Tesla should have an easier time building their first truck ever than Ford did building their 1,000th(?) new truck. Every time Ford changes panels or motors or transmissions or even trim levels, they have to change a lot of their assembly line. That's what they do. They've done it every model year for over a hundred years across several production and model lines.

Ford's experience with these yearly changes should give them a leg up and make them able to build and ramp up production of new models quickly. When they started the newest generation of Mustang production, Ford made 122,349 of them in the first year and was probably demand constrained rather than production constrained). This is why I find their fumbling of Lightning production so troublesome.

Ford should have been able to leverage their existing battery pack and motor expertise into the Lightning. Ford made the Ranger EV Electric Pickup from 1998-2002 (and some random EV back in 1914, LOL). I'm not saying it's a direct move from those Rangers to the Lightning - just that Ford has had electric vehicles here and there already. They've had hybrids and EVs.

I'm not trying to rile anyone up. I have an opinion and have some expertise in production lines. I enjoy the conversation going on about production woes and type pretty fast so I seem verbose in replies... But, I like it.

 

[cvalue13]

I respect your opinion in the forum here and will cease airing my opinion on Ford's possible issues.

Please don't!

I respect yours in return, and personally have no social qualms with either of us prodding one-another's drunken rants!

you're drunk, too, right?

 

[TyPope]

Please don't!

I respect yours in return, and personally have no social qualms with either of us prodding one-another's drunken rants!

you're drunk, too, right?

Maybe but I'm not as think as you drunk I am.

 

[Crissa]

I agree that every single panel and part of the truck is new. Okay, maybe a fastener here and there were reused. I don't think I made my point very well though and that's my fault.

What I was trying to say is that there are few, if any, components in the Lightning that Ford has not already made similar versions of. Ford has made every component on the Lightning in some form already. They are changing processes, not inventing new processes for every aspect of the truck. Is it hard? Yes. Is it ground breaking for Ford? No. Should they have an easier time shifting from the F-150 to the Lightning than Tesla does from the Model Y to the Cybertruck? Absolutely.

It would be odd to think Tesla should have an easier time building their first truck ever than Ford did building their 1,000th(?) new truck. Every time Ford changes panels or motors or transmissions or even trim levels, they have to change a lot of their assembly line. That's what they do. They've done it every model year for over a hundred years across several production and model lines.

Ford's experience with these yearly changes should give them a leg up and make them able to build and ramp up production of new models quickly. When they started the newest generation of Mustang production, Ford made 122,349 of them in the first year and was probably demand constrained rather than production constrained). This is why I find their fumbling of Lightning production so troublesome.

Ford should have been able to leverage their existing battery pack and motor expertise into the Lightning. Ford made the Ranger EV Electric Pickup from 1998-2002 (and some random EV back in 1914, LOL). I'm not saying it's a direct move from those Rangers to the Lightning - just that Ford has had electric vehicles here and there already. They've had hybrids and EVs.

I'm not trying to rile anyone up. I have an opinion and have some expertise in production lines. I enjoy the conversation going on about production woes and type pretty fast so I seem verbose in replies... But, I like it.

Having few new components is unrelated to the cost or importance of those components.

The battery pack is just a component, but it's super important to get right, and costs (and weighs) a significant amount of the vehicle. EVs have fewer, but more expensive components.

None, and I mean none, of those prior battery packs were built by Ford.

-Crissa

 

[charliemagpie]

Cariad should be a lesson to all. In a few years, what is now established may practically not exist to cover over such failures.

Licensing will save Ford, software/hardware. I love their history, and they have expertise in areas. Then they can get back to doing what they know. imo

Edit.. in fact, I am convinced the largest part of Legacy's future profits will come not by selling cars, but from adding their cars to the Robotaxi network.

 

[SolarWizard]

Ford may be serious about EVs, but they can't seriously stay in the EV business if they keep losing an average of $66,000 per EV they sell.

"Ford reported a $722 million loss on its EV business over the first three months of 2023. During that span, Ford sold 10,866 EVs, meaning it lost $66,446 on every EV it sold."

Short term memory on tesla loyalists
Ford is taking write downs against evs for factory construction

 

[TyPope]

Having few new components is unrelated to the cost or importance of those components.

The battery pack is just a component, but it's super important to get right, and costs (and weighs) a significant amount of the vehicle. EVs have fewer, but more expensive components.

None, and I mean none, of those prior battery packs were built by Ford.

-Crissa

Okay. I still feel that Ford, with their years and years of experience manufacturing trucks would have an easier time manufacturing trucks than they are.

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