How can it be so affordable?

[Old Pro]

Not at all. Everyone knows the CT is Elon's star Baby, so a good amount of glitter will fall on us as well (also known as pixie dust). Pixie dust is how not only the Roadster will levitate, but it will keep the prices from levitating on the CT as well. It is simple mathematics, Elon style. Ford used the Ruby slippers to get the early models going. Elon will simply use pixie dust, and we will all benefit from it

As long as I have the opportunity to purchase by the time I turn age 70! 15 months away!? The CT is my birthday present to myself.

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[Ogre]

Can you elaborate on "4680" cells. What are they?

About two years ago Tesla had a special Battery Day, and unveiled a series of planned improvements to their battery platform. One of them was a new battery cell which was bigger than their current platform and had a series of cost savings manufacturing technologies. That cell is called the 4680 cell based on the diameter and height of the cell (46mm wide, 80mm tall). The cells are less expensive to manufacture and more energy dense.

With the new cell, they can bundle them into a package called a structural battery. The structural pack is simpler to cool and as the name implies, is usable as part of the structure of the vehicle. A typical battery pack is dead weight which needs to be supported by the car or truck. With the structural battery, they cram all the cells into the case and fill it with resin which turns it into a giant stiff platform which can help support the weight of the cabin.

Without the cost and weight improvements the cell enables, the Cybertruck would be nearly as expensive as the Rivian. There are other cost/ weight savings measures, but the 4680 cells and the structural battery are more or less fundamental components which underpin the whole thing.

 

[Crissa]

Can you elaborate on "4680" cells. What are they?

They're a cylindrical cell that's larger than any cylindrical rechargeable before.

A cylindrical cell is cheap because you take the cathode and anode and put it down in a long piece that's easy to make, then roll it up and put it into a metal can. That's easy to do, machines already do all that, and you can change the anode and cathode material fairly easily.

But this time Tesla is changing this form-factor. The 'tab' - a little wire that connects the far end of the rolled-up battery sandwich - is what limits the size of cylindrical cells. Well, Tesla figured out a way to make an overlapping edge, so that they can do without that little wire. That means the heat and electricity goes to the edges of the long piece of battery that's rolled up. No more limit on the size of the cell.

The larger size then means machines can make more per hour - and that you can use them in a structure, since they're so big. Both of these are cost-savings.

Lastly, Tesla has this 'dry electrolyte' they bought from Maxwell. That eliminates a whole bunch of water and drying and water-treatment that battery cell production currenly require.

All this makes the Tesla 4680 possibly the cheapest battery out there. Here's a huge series (and even this one is an hour! But it explains the nuts and bolts about each step. You don't need to know electronics, he'll teach you it.)




The 4680 isn't really a 'better' battery: It's a cheaper one.

-Crissa

 

[Ogre]

The 4680 isn't really a 'better' battery: It's a cheaper one.

It increases effective power density which is better.

It has fewer parts which usually leads to a more reliable product.

In the lab at least, it can be cycled more than the 2170 before losing charge which means it is useful for longer.

Assuming the transition from small scale production to volume production hasn't degraded it somehow, it should be not just cheaper, but better as well.

 

[Crissa]

It has fewer parts which usually leads to a more reliable product.

In the lab at least, it can be cycled more than the 2170 before losing charge which means it is useful for longer.

This may or may not be fewer parts. The 'tabless' design is still a part, to the increasing the complexity of the battery.

They can be cycled more compared to today's 2170s. Tomorrow's 2170s will have the same chemistry advantages.

-Crissa

 

[FutureBoy]

Not at all. Everyone knows the CT is Elon's star Baby, so a good amount of glitter will fall on us as well (also known as pixie dust). Pixie dust is how not only the Roadster will levitate, but it will keep the prices from levitating on the CT as well. It is simple mathematics, Elon style. Ford used the Ruby slippers to get the early models going. Elon will simply use pixie dust, and we will all benefit from it

Wait, so do I get pixie dust with my CT purchase? This could really make things interesting.

 

[Ogre]

This may or may not be fewer parts. The 'tabless' design is still a part, to the increasing the complexity of the battery.

They can be cycled more compared to today's 2170s. Tomorrow's 2170s will have the same chemistry advantages.

-Crissa

I was thinking more about the fact that there are something like 4x fewer cells with the same amount of energy. You can reduce the complexity per cell with 2170, but you are always going to have fewer cells with the 4680 just due to volume.

 

[SpaceDoc]

I can see all of these points and they are definitely all valid and make plenty of sense.. I just think it will be odd to be at a Tesla dealership and see a basic model Y dual motor priced at the current $54,000, and sitting next to it a dual motor CT with all the above mentioned upgrades for $49,000. Seems like that could make the Y a hard sell to a lot of buyers when they see this CT with so many more cool features and it costs 10% less. They may not be in the market for a truck but it will make them wonder why the more expensive Model Y they are considering purchasing doesn’t have any comparable features but still costs more.

Completely different markets.
Do yuppie suburbanites look at price differences between the family hauling SUV and a pickup truck? Probably not (except maybe here in Texas ?).

Model Y is an upscale SUV, which is probably compared to other upscale SUVs of similar price range.

Also, Teslas sell primarily through the internet, so comparison at “dealerships” is not likely. And if you are looking for a family hauling SUV, why would you even click over to the CT? And if you did, you’d probably think it was weird or interesting, then go back about your business. ?

 

[tidmutt]

Completely different markets.
Do yuppie suburbanites look at price differences between the family hauling SUV and a pickup truck? Probably not (except maybe here in Texas ?).

Model Y is an upscale SUV, which is probably compared to other upscale SUVs of similar price range.

Also, Teslas sell primarily through the internet, so comparison at “dealerships” is not likely. And if you are looking for a family hauling SUV, why would you even click over to the CT? And if you did, you’d probably think it was weird or interesting, then go back about your business. ?

Not to mention that the Model Y is being improved as well. Front and rear castings, interior improvements, and eventually the 4680s as well. A structural battery pack Y with front and rear castings is going to be a pretty interesting vehicle. I'm hoping when they do they introduce a cheaper model option, same with a 4680 based Model 3.

Image a 500 mile Model 3 or Model Y, might never happen, but it would be possible with 4680s. A 350 mile range model 3 or Y that's cheaper, lighter, faster to charge and a high cycle life battery is pretty damn impressive even when compared to the CT.

 

[Crissa]

The 4680s actually are tougher to charge faster because of their size - they will heat up more in the middle. Their greater mass will have more thermal 'momentum'. But their advantages outweigh this one disadvantage.

-Crissa

PS, larger cells have a production disadvantage, too: you have to go further between flaws to create a cell. Smaller cells are shorter strips, and therefore easier to trim out flaws. This is what is burning up the Bolts, according to GM.

 

[madquadbiker]

I am seriously thinking of purchasing a model Y long range now just to tide me over until CT arrives. I use my current truck for both work and as a daily driver but it’s showing it’s age and a few problems popping up. I’m thinking of getting the Y to use as my daily driver and only using the truck when towing excavators, skid steers, etc. As I was checking the Tesla site for a model y this evening, of course it now has no estimated ship date so I dunno. ?‍

With the delay in getting my CT (still assuming we are allowed to have one here in the U.K.) I’m swapping my Smart ForTwo for their EQ ForTwo model, had a test drive and really liked the drive, only downside is the rubbish range but for longer trips I have the Nissan pickup. Let’s see how using electric instead of petrol will work out, don’t know if the news has reached the US but our pathetic government has allowed us to run out of petrol and diesel at the pumps, so having at least one EV that I can charge from my solar panels will be a massive bonus.

 

[firsttruck]

With the delay in getting my CT (still assuming we are allowed to have one here in the U.K.) I’m swapping my Smart ForTwo for their EQ ForTwo model, had a test drive and really liked the drive, only downside is the rubbish range but for longer trips I have the Nissan pickup. Let’s see how using electric instead of petrol will work out, don’t know if the news has reached the US but our pathetic government has allowed us to run out of petrol and diesel at the pumps, so having at least one EV that I can charge from my solar panels will be a massive bonus.

------------


Looks like you might not be alone


UK Fuel Shortage Leads To 1,600% Surge In EV Online Searches
Online interest for electric cars exploded to 16 times the average volume in a single day.
Sep 28, 2021
By: Dan Mihalascu
https://insideevs.com/news/536914/fuel-shortage-ev-online-searches/

 

[tidmutt]

The 4680s actually are tougher to charge faster because of their size - they will heat up more in the middle. Their greater mass will have more thermal 'momentum'. But their advantages outweigh this one disadvantage.

-Crissa

PS, larger cells have a production disadvantage, too: you have to go further between flaws to create a cell. Smaller cells are shorter strips, and therefore easier to trim out flaws. This is what is burning up the Bolts, according to GM.

Yeah, Tesla has a slide on how large diameter leads to slower charging time. My understanding is that this offset by the tabless design and the silicon anode. The tabless design gives the larger cell the thermal characteristics of a smaller cell. That's been my lay interpretation of the information presented.

Either way, there are claims of some pretty impressive charge times. We shall see, but any improvement is good.

 

[Ogre]

My brain broke and now reading this thread all I see is

"How can it be so Adorable?"

Is it the cute little angled nose?

Maybe the yoke that looks like a cute little koala head?

I just don't know, how can it be so Adorable?

 

[John K]

My brain broke and now reading this thread all I see is

"How can it be so Adorable?"

Is it the cute little angled nose?

Maybe the yoke that looks like a cute little koala head?

I just don't know, how can it be so Adorable?

My CT is TOUGH and courageous. Not adorable?

Mothers of the world… Ahhhh, How adorable.

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