Make Cyber Truck orders non-refundable

[rr6013]

You’re towing suck it up and pay the big bucks at the pump. BEV isn’t there yet. Elon with the golden touch took one too many liberties until his vanity project matched his wealth.
Real trucks, trucks that earn keep on weekend and the long hauler that knocks out 400 mi./sitting aren’t within reach for mere mortals.
Whatever Elon thought his pickup could beat F-150, he lost sight as tweak after improvement convinced him to throw the whole Cybertruck off the production lineup for a Rivian killer.

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[Jhodgesatmb]

Oh, you don't think there will be an intermediate step where when I configure my actual truck they ask for $x000 at that point, and the rest at delivery? That's always the step I stop at when playing with the configurer of the S3XY models.

Nope, but I like the idea nonetheless.

 

[Jhodgesatmb]

You’re towing suck it up and pay the big bucks at the pump. BEV isn’t there yet. Elon with the golden touch took one too many liberties until his vanity project matched his wealth.
Real trucks, trucks that earn keep on weekend and the long hauler that knocks out 400 mi./sitting aren’t within reach for mere mortals.
Whatever Elon thought his pickup could beat F-150, he lost sight as tweak after improvement convinced him to throw the whole Cybertruck off the production lineup for a Rivian killer.

You are hilarious. Do you think you have an audience here? Go troll somewhere else.

 

[Ogre]

You’re towing suck it up and pay the big bucks at the pump. BEV isn’t there yet. Elon with the golden touch took one too many liberties until his vanity project matched his wealth.
Real trucks, trucks that earn keep on weekend and the long hauler that knocks out 400 mi./sitting aren’t within reach for mere mortals.
Whatever Elon thought his pickup could beat F-150, he lost sight as tweak after improvement convinced him to throw the whole Cybertruck off the production lineup for a Rivian killer.

Maybe the dumbest thing I’ve read online all week.

Trucks are not “Towing machines”. A huge number of trucks don’t tow ever. Even the ones that tow, often only tow short distances occasionally. This stupid insistence that all trucks must be able to tow loads 500 miles or they suck… isn’t based on reality and the way the vast majority of trucks are used.

But that’s not even what makes this message the dumbest post I’ve seen all week.

We haven’t seen the final Cybertruck. You have taken your personal pile of assumptions and turned that into a masterpiece of self delusion and FUD. Nothing you suggest is based on actual reality, it’s all supposition and fear.

Of course that seems to be par for the course with much of the Cybertruck conversation lately. You listen to the whiners and it’s going to be a $200,000 truck that will do nothing.

 

[charliemagpie]

The competition is coming, and the million FUD articles have their day in the Sun, then reality hits, and the crap is replaced with new crap... and so on.

Lower CT expectation, raise competition.

That tactic serves to shrink the gap. Like everything else, it will be short lived.

Then we can look forward to the Robotaxi being a great failure. !!

 

[Green-Mario]

If $100k for a 500 mile truck is too much for you, then you should just move on from it. Either get the lower range offering or go all in on your F-150 lightning and pay $100k for 300 miles. Its really up to you.

The top end Cybertruck will not be cheap, nor should it be. The F-150, Silverado EV, Rivian, etc, etc are all $100k+ vehicles if you want the good ones. The CT will be no different. Best you move on if that reality is too much for you. You can either buy the cheaper entry level models of the CT, or any competition, and "pay" to wait. A 500 mile EV of any shape would be record setting and a game changer for many reasons. If you can't justify $100k for it, then don't plan on getting one.

A $100k EV truck is borderline standard now. Sorry to break it to ya.

 

[ÆCIII]

The so called EV Tax Credit is nothing but a 'numbers game' by the government to manipulate the people's perception to facilitate support for other things. Everyone knows the Tax Credit will not benefit Tesla or its customers, because Tesla will simply be forced to increase prices yet again to limit out-of-control demand, which will increase by perception due to the 'Tax Credit'.

This was also proved conversely, when Tesla immediately reduced prices after the initial 200K production tax credit expired in the later part of the Model 3 ramp-up. So the customers get usually nothing even though some think they do, and Tesla gets increased margins that they cannot realize until months or even a year or more, due to demand backlog.

The real reason for the Tax Credit is to disguise a way to funnel money to legacy auto makers, which is why they also included PHEVs (otherwise less money would go to legacy auto from the so-called 'tax credit'). Including PHEVs equally for the credit, validates the message that the government is not truly concerned about the environment at all, but more concerned about its corporate interests instead. Now if they had pro-rated the credit for PHEVs by their rated KWh, then I would perceive their EV Tax Credit as more genuinely focused on the environment. But of course that method would generate less money for legacy auto, which is in conflict with their goal.

Elon has also said Tesla doesn't need any tax credits or incentives, and he too knows the above factors apply. Many need to wake up and get out of the mental sheep perception thinking that a 'tax credit' is actually getting them something, because in truth it really is not. The government cares more about helping certain corporations with the so-called tax credit, than it ever will care about helping individuals.

- ÆCIII

 

[Crissa]

The so called EV Tax Credit is nothing but a 'numbers game' by the government to manipulate the people's perception to facilitate support for other things. Everyone knows the Tax Credit will not benefit Tesla or its customers, because Tesla will simply be forced to increase prices yet again to limit out-of-control demand, which will increase by perception due to the 'Tax Credit'.

This was also proved conversely, when Tesla immediately reduced prices after the initial 200K production tax credit expired in the later part of the Model 3 ramp-up. So the customers get usually nothing even though some think they do, and Tesla gets increased margins that they cannot realize until months or even a year or more, due to demand backlog.

The real reason for the Tax Credit is to disguise a way to funnel money to legacy auto makers, which is why they also included PHEVs (otherwise less money would go to legacy auto from the so-called 'tax credit'). Including PHEVs equally for the credit, validates the message that the government is not truly concerned about the environment at all, but more concerned about its corporate interests instead. Now if they had pro-rated the credit for PHEVs by their rated KWh, then I would perceive their EV Tax Credit as more genuinely focused on the environment. But of course that method would generate less money for legacy auto, which is in conflict with their goal.

Elon has also said Tesla doesn't need any tax credits or incentives, and he too knows the above factors apply. Many need to wake up and get out of the mental sheep perception thinking that a 'tax credit' is actually getting them something, because in truth it really is not. The government cares more about helping certain corporations with the so-called tax credit, than it ever will care about helping individuals.

How is it so bad that companies are rewarded for getting us products better for everyone? That Tesla doesn't need it, doesn't mean others don't. And Elon has said many times that Tesla cannot convert the entire Is fleet themselves.

And please cite how much the Model 3 price went down after the credit expired.

-Crissa

 

[ÆCIII]

How is it so bad that companies are rewarded for getting us products better for everyone? That Tesla doesn't need it, doesn't mean others don't. And Elon has said many times that Tesla cannot convert the entire Is fleet themselves.

And please cite how much the Model 3 price went down after the credit expired.

-Crissa

Tesla had reduced its prices incrementally during the phase-out period of the initial tax credit and model 3 ramp, effectively offsetting mostly the financial benefit of the tax credit.

In Feburary of 2019, Tesla lowered the prices $1100 to $2000 dollars depending on the model/variant:
https://www.thedrive.com/news/26365/tesla-cuts-price-of-model-3-for-the-second-time-in-2019

In May 2020 Tesla lowered the prices another $2000 dollars which again offset tax credit phase-outs, which actually made their previous perceived benefits moot in the first place.
https://electrek.co/2020/05/27/tesla-cuts-prices-lineup/

In February 2021, Tesla reduced the prices of Model 3 and Model Y variants by another $2000 dollars.
https://www.reuters.com/business/au...ces-base-variants-model-3-model-y-2021-02-18/

There could be more price reductions I might have missed. I'm sure Rob from Tesla Daily or SMR probably has all the price reductions on their evaluation models and spreadsheet data.

So most people worried about a tax credit back in 2018, could've just waited until after the phase out and bought newer more refined Model 3's, with a price reduced to almost as low as what the tax credit would've got them, especially since Tesla also started including the $5000 Performance Package for free in late 2018 also.

I would not have as much of a problem with the tax credit if - it was genuinely meant to promote sustainable energy for the environment. They should at least pro-rate the PHEVs and not unfairly give them the full $7500 credit.

I have no problem with helping corporations either, if they themselves are genuinely focused on a clean business model to support sustainable energy, and not wasting money on bloated media advertising, dealer networks, and unions - because helping those corporations inherently puts some of that money to those process-outsiders as well, who have been fleecing both the carmakers' margins and the customers, paralyzing true innovation. So its like the tax credit money is just being put on a corrupt merry-go-round.

So of course I do have a problem with a tax credit going to companies who are not spending money wisely for themselves nor their consumers. The only company that is doing that right now, is Tesla, although Ford is trying to clean up their model from dealers, but we'll see what time will tell us there, and I wish them luck.

The tax credit going to PHEV purchases, is not helping the car companies bring us anything, but more ICE and PHEVs. If a corporation can increase prices/margins using a tax credit for PHEVs they've already been making for years, then how is that going to really incentivize them to make more innovative and quality pure BEVs? It's not. If they can get this money by selling a PHEV, why go to the trouble of scaling BEV production which is much harder and requires much more battery materials and manufacturing? Tesla's done their homework and preparation, but no one else really has - yet legacy auto is being given the same tax credit margin boosters simply for posturing PHEVs as if they're BEVs.

- ÆCIII

 

[Ogre]

The tax credit going to PHEV purchases, is not helping the car companies bring us anything, but more ICE and PHEVs. If a corporation can increase prices/margins using a tax credit for PHEVs they've already been making for years, then how is that going to really incentivize them to make more innovative and quality pure BEVs? It's not. If they can get this money by selling a PHEV, why go to the trouble of scaling BEV production which is much harder and requires much more battery materials and manufacturing? Tesla's done their homework and preparation, but no one else really has - yet legacy auto is being given the same tax credit margin boosters simply for posturing PHEVs as if they're BEVs.

I’m not a fan of PHEVs getting included in this incentive. Likewise not a fan of fuel cells and “Brown Hydrogen” getting incentives. Personally, I think both are dead ends so don’t really care. It is a waste of government dollars and will likely burn consumers and auto companies.

The way I see it, the advantages of BEVs are so obvious once you‘ve driven one, people are just going to stop buying any ICE vehicles. It’s already happening and it’s going to keep accelerating as more and more people come to understand how much nicer it really is. We’ve just moved out of the innovator’s and nibbling at the early adopters. As we work through the early adopters PHEVs might stand a chance. Once BEVs start to hit the mainstream PHEVs won’t stand a chance.

By the end of this year Tesla’s production will be at a 2m vehicle a year run rate. By the end of next year it will be 3m/ year. As volume ramps up, scale will continue to improve and prices will drop.

Companies investing in (new) PHEVs or fuel cells right now will be steamrollered.

It’s wasted ink. Likely to cost taxpayers (and buyers) a few billion dollars but in the grand scheme, it’s a rounding error.

 

[Crissa]

If your evidence is that Tesla lowered the price by 1/4 the credits six months before the phase-out, then again three years after the phase out - at the same point when they were able to finally increase their production and reap some economies of scale...

Those price changes don't seem particularly connected to the tax credit.

-Crissa

 

[Bill906]

I’m not a fan of PHEVs getting included in this incentive. Likewise not a fan of fuel cells and “Brown Hydrogen” getting incentives. Personally, I think both are dead ends so don’t really care. It is a waste of government dollars and will likely burn consumers and auto companies.

The way I see it, the advantages of BEVs are so obvious once you‘ve driven one, people are just going to stop buying any ICE vehicles. It’s already happening and it’s going to keep accelerating as more and more people come to understand how much nicer it really is. We’ve just moved out of the innovator’s and nibbling at the early adopters. As we work through the early adopters PHEVs might stand a chance. Once BEVs start to hit the mainstream PHEVs won’t stand a chance.

By the end of this year Tesla’s production will be at a 2m vehicle a year run rate. By the end of next year it will be 3m/ year. As volume ramps up, scale will continue to improve and prices will drop.

Companies investing in (new) PHEVs or fuel cells right now will be steamrollered.

It’s wasted ink. Likely to cost taxpayers (and buyers) a few billion dollars but in the grand scheme, it’s a rounding error.

When I reserved my CT I considered myself an early adopter. But now I’m worried by the time I get it, I’ll be a Laggard.

 

[Ogre]

When I reserved my CT I considered myself an early adopter. But now I’m worried by the time I get it, I’ll be a Laggard.

We’re not even at 5% of install base yet! You’ve got at least another year before we hit the early majority….

 

[ÆCIII]

I’m not a fan of PHEVs getting included in this incentive. Likewise not a fan of fuel cells and “Brown Hydrogen” getting incentives. Personally, I think both are dead ends so don’t really care. It is a waste of government dollars and will likely burn consumers and auto companies.

The way I see it, the advantages of BEVs are so obvious once you‘ve driven one, people are just going to stop buying any ICE vehicles. It’s already happening and it’s going to keep accelerating as more and more people come to understand how much nicer it really is. We’ve just moved out of the innovator’s and nibbling at the early adopters. As we work through the early adopters PHEVs might stand a chance. Once BEVs start to hit the mainstream PHEVs won’t stand a chance.

By the end of this year Tesla’s production will be at a 2m vehicle a year run rate. By the end of next year it will be 3m/ year. As volume ramps up, scale will continue to improve and prices will drop.

Companies investing in (new) PHEVs or fuel cells right now will be steamrollered.

It’s wasted ink. Likely to cost taxpayers (and buyers) a few billion dollars but in the grand scheme, it’s a rounding error.

I actually hope you're right, because it would mean the undeserved PHEV tax credits would be mitigated a lot by people preferring BEVs instead. Problem is, legacy hasn't truly engaged their focus or what it really takes to scale BEV production like Tesla has, so while many might refuse to buy PHEVs, the most available choices of BEVs (tax credit eligible) at scale will be Teslas, and the waiting lists could get long. So maybe a few will resort to buying PHEVs for the interim, or maybe not.

But I'll admit I do not like 'tax credits' in general because it is really the government being too involved in people's personal lives, by actually providing a portion of each person's car purchase ('partial government issue', as it were). Anytime the government disburses something to the people widespread and long term, they do not do it in a vacuum and will always expect to leverage something from the people in return. Taxpayers still pay for it, being part of the budget which the government always overspends from, which ultimately prompts them to raise citizens taxes even more a little down the 'road'. What goes around comes around and everyone still has to pay for it.

I agree with Elon's take on tax incentives not being necessary. If he is 'secure' in Tesla's ability to sustain cash flow and business without tax credits, then I am also 'secure' in my own ability to purchase compelling Tesla products without the government getting their hands into it either. Often when the government 'gets their hand' into something, they rarely release it, but often increase their grasp instead.

Simple fiscal responsibility has been beyond our government's comprehension for decades now, so I don't want the government involved in my financial purchase decisions, any more than absolutely necessary.

- ÆCIII

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