No Resale Agreement?

[Alan]

Flippers will be a drop in the bucket. Not worth this apparent desire to find something to worry about.

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[jqattan56]

The even fairer alternative is for tesla to just auction the vehicles. Forget all this reservation nonsense. Why should you - who have contributed absolutely nothing to the vehicle's design, engineering, manufacturer, etc. - profit from its popularity? Just auction the vehicles. The end.

Good on you, mate.

 

[cvalue13]

FWIW, I think you are missing the beauty of the idea and its simplicity. It is not a ROFO or a ROFR. Those get complex as you rightly point out, especially around the price. In my proposal the price is already set (purchase price). So In your trade for the boat example, it is irrelevant what the boat is worth. You have an obligation to offer it to Tesla first. If they want it, the price is $____ (original purchase price). If they do not, trade, sell, burn to the ground, it is of no concern to Tesla.

FWIW, I think you are missing that this is still a ROFR/ROFO, all you’ve done is proposed a pre-determined strike price as being “$___” - which proposal does not resolve the issues presented by ROFR/ROFO agreement, it merely shifts some of those issues to being ‘hidden’ behind determining the “$___”.

There’s a lot of nuance packed into determining “$___”. Which nuance is why you’ve had to leave it ‘blank.’ Hard to dream up a singular pre-determined strike price that ‘works’ across contexts. A few have been pointed out in this thread.

Problems with a pre-determined strike price do still include the issue of the trade for a custom boat. The owner doesn’t want “$___”, it wants the boat. Owner can’t have the boat, because Tesla can only give “$___.”

Pre-determining the strike price for the ROFR/ROFO

Now, as for enforcement, when you buy a used Tesla you need to contact Tesla to transfer the vehicle. The new owner then becomes responsible for all the Supercharging, connectivity fees etc., and the new owner is the owner of record for electronic access to the vehicle (the PAAK and app etc.). So Tesla has a natural enforcement opportunity. They will not transfer owners if you did not meet your contractual obligation to offer the vehicle for sale to Tesla first.

By difficult to enforce I do not mean difficult to know who is selling or buying. I mean, even after you know those things, getting from point (A) [the contract exists] to point (B) [the car is legally owned/possessed by Tesla].

These types of contracts are not governed by the same sort of laws around lenders rights of repossession, etc. - Tesla cannot merely send a towtruck and take possession of the vehicle. They likely have to go to a court, to first adjudicate the contract for a prelim injunction - leaving the car’s ownership in limbo for possibly weeks or months - until the court is able to adjudicate the contract for a judgment in Tesla’s favor. It’s a rather distasteful, expensive, process.

The only times it goes “smoothly” for Tesla is if the counterparty/owner is too afraid/uneducated to understand the required processes, and just hands the car over - which takes me back to “locks only keep out honest people.”

Anywho, point being there is nothing elegant or simple about creating and enforcing (essentially) these types of agreements on personal property.

Tesla has to make every legitimate buyer of a CT deal with these processes in order to “solve” a marginal, temporary, issue with a few scalpers. There will be fewer scalpers than there will be ‘legitimate’ buyers who end up selling within first 12 months for legitimate reasons (eg didn’t appreciate size of trucks, death, financial hardship, just didn’t work out, etc.)

 

[Crissa]

So you’re wanting tesla to pay me back MSRP for a vehicle I put 20k on in a year? If so im still making money unless theres another way to drive vehicles for free that im unaware of. What if they raises prices and I wreck it? Are they gonna stop my insurance company from paying me more than I did?

If people wanna flip vehicles, they should be allowed to do so. Otherwise, should tesla ban turo? What about paid photo shoot/youtube profits? What about the promise of a robotaxi that they gave impossible timelines for, thus driving sales for “profiteers”?

If tesla misses out on some money through resale or people with more money than patience and wanna skip the line, ALL of us benefit in the long run because more sales = more scaled production = more free advertisement = more $/share

I can’t believe this is still a topic quite frankly. People act like Uncle Elon is running a non-profit giving out canned goods and people are sellin green beans off a table out front.

Tesla has been known to sell vehicles on the used market at a higher price than the new.

Because they sell them at market price.

And the Right of First Refusal has a pretty strong contract precedent.

-Crissa

 

[Deleted member 3316]

There is a high probability that many CT buyers in the first 18 months will be profiteers buying to flip the vehicle. Many Rivian buyers continuing to do that. It is also common with other high popularity vehicles. (In brands like Ford and GM that use the franchise stealership model, the local stealership massively marks them up.) Ford tried a no-resale for 12 months contract on the Lightning. Not sure how much good it did. So here is a modest proposal:

Tesla should include a 12 month buy-back right on the CT. Simple agreement. Tesla has, at its option, the right to buy-back the truck if you decide to sell it, for full purchase price, anytime during the first 12 months. If Tesla turns down the right to buy then sell as you see fit.

It will discourage profiteering from the speculators. You want the truck, buy it /drive it /enjoy it. Situation changes? Sell it for a full refund to Tesla if they want it or on the secondary market if they do not. Your early reservation has no value other than that you get to buy the truck earlier.

Okay, blast away.

https://www.cybertruckownersclub.com/forum/threads/cybercatch22-demand-vs-delay.8179/

https://www.cybertruckownersclub.co...t-protection-against-resellers-scalpers.5927/

 

[Deleted member 3316]

People reselling for a profit is a very short term issue. Tesla has measures to mitigate large scale abuse, and putting more draconian limits up screws with owners and will almost certainly cost Tesla more to implement than it’s worth.

Once Tesla has 50,000 trucks in consumers driveways, the premium will come down fast. We’re about a year after Rivian and Ford put their first vehicles on the road and used prices are below new now even for very low mileage vehicles. While demand isn’t as high for these vehicles, supply has been quite tight on both. These other vehicles also give a good substitute vehicle for people who just want an electric truck.

Lots of people who thought they‘d be able to flip their Lightning or Rivian are crying right now. Similar situation will happen not long after Cybertruck is out.

Likely within ~6-12 months of first shipment used prices on Cybertruck will stabilize to something sane. Used cars get even crappier financing than new and interest rates are relatively high right now. Also, transaction costs are high, particularly in sales tax states. California flippers will pay 8% tax on their new truck, then the buyer will pay another 8% on top of that. All of this carves into profits fast.

Over 1.5 million reservations…….
This is not going to be a short term thing…

 

[Deleted member 3316]

The even fairer alternative is for tesla to just auction the vehicles. Forget all this reservation nonsense. Why should you - who have contributed absolutely nothing to the vehicle's design, engineering, manufacturer, etc. - profit from its popularity? Just auction the vehicles. The end.

Tesla has shot themselves in the foot with the reservation system. I would be glad for it if they implement a no resale or lease to own contract for all reservation holders.

Tesla must keep the reservation system otherwise they would alienate a huge proportion of their customer base.

New market strategy just for Cybertruck.

For the first 4 years of production (1million ish vehicles),
Sell only to reservation holders at MSRP with a 18month-2year resale covenant of some description,

AND

Sell a small proportion with no resale restriction to all comers, equal to the estimated scalping/flipper rate (~10%) at open auction in each sales territory. A slight augment to this could be could be to have a higher proportion of the ~10% be open only to reservation holders and delivery wave excess at an in person all comer auction.

 

[Deleted member 3316]

 

[Crissa]

There's no reason for people to continue engaging in a pointless argument when you made the last n replies when n is greater than 1.

-Crissa

 

[Deleted member 3316]

There's no reason for people to continue engaging in a pointless argument when you made the last n replies when n is greater than 1.

-Crissa

It just seems to me that you guys recognise that you’ve been either

completely misunderstanding what I’ve been trying to say, berating me for it, and now embarrassed

or

you’ve understood exactly but know if implemented could limit your capacity to sell your reservations and as such want the conversation shut down.

 

[Crissa]

Pretty sure everyone just thinks you're the guy suggesting Tesla price trucks at scalper prices, even though that was a different poster.

-Crissa

 

[Deleted member 3316]

Pretty sure everyone just thinks you're the guy suggesting Tesla price trucks at scalper prices, even though that was a different poster.

-Crissa

It should be quite clear I don’t want Tesla to price CyberTruck significantly higher than reveal prices, but unless they have a different market strategy it’s highly likely launch MSRP will be high.

So far the only issue I’ve been able to identify from various discussions (for want of a better word) on this forum, is the articulation of the strategy is complex.

People find it very difficult to comprehend that queue jumpers with queue jump and scalpers will scalp.

The strategy I’m suggesting wouldn’t push more people in front of them, it’s just some people had spots saved and this would make that transparent. If anything it should make the line contract a little as scalpers/flippers jump out from the disincentive.

 

[Ogre]

People find it very difficult to comprehend that queue jumpers with queue jump and scalpers will scalp.

You were talking about straw men earlier. This is a straw man.

I think everyone recognizes scalping will happen. Most of us just don’t think it will have a significant impact on delivery timing. Also, the things people are suggesting to “Fix” it are unlikely to do anything to fix it.

You’ve done little to address or even quantify either of those concerns.

Honestly, I think most of us are just flat out done with this topic. You aren’t convincing anyone, and clearly not willing to be convinced.

 

[Deleted member 3316]

You were talking about straw men earlier. This is a straw man.

I think everyone recognizes scalping will happen. Most of us just don’t think it will have a significant impact on delivery timing. Also, the things people are suggesting to “Fix” it are unlikely to do anything to fix it.

You’ve done little to address or even quantify either of those concerns.

Honestly, I think most of us are just flat out done with this topic. You aren’t convincing anyone, and clearly not willing to be convinced.

It’s not a strawman. It’s the basis of the conversation.

I’m quite willing to be convinced it’s just that nobody has brought anything convincing. Its mostly insults and derision based on their own misunderstanding. Most likely from jumping in to the conversation with half the information.

Like saying “what idiot suggested we only have chips for dinner” and refusing to look at the steak in the other side of the plate.

If you can’t see that the risk of scalping is a sliding scale associated with price, you are correct there is no point in further conversation.

 

[Ogre]

If you can’t see that the risk of scalping is a sliding scale associated with price, you are correct there is no point in further conversation.

I don’t think there is any basis for further conversation. I said that a while back. Mostly been trying to ignore you since because as I said in the previous post, neither side of the discussion finds the other side convincing.

It’s called beating a dead horse.

Now I’m sure you are going to tell me how that’s the wrong analogy. Go ahead, I’ll wait while you beat that dead horse too.

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