Tesla Inductive Charging Pad (wireless) is in development!

[REM]

https://www.carscoops.com/?p=2891289

I guess you might have missed this article. It’s a newly constructed highway so I was wondering how retrofitting existing highways would be.

I have friend in the energy sector that tell me the grid will be the limiting factor for decades for majority EV transportation. Plus most people drive during the day when the grid is at peak limits. This would not flatten the demand timing.

I can only assume that the project is either a money laundering scheme between government officials and highway contractors, or they needed to spend a boatload of tax money on something before the end of the year lest they lose further funding. Highway infrastructure is insanely expensive, and I cannot imagine what serious numbers would look like for wirelessly charging massive batteries traveling 80+ mph.

As for the limiting factor issue... maybe folks tend to not have the whole picture of how much our grid is going to change in the next 10 years. Entire gas/coal fired peaker plants are being shutdown and dismantled right now due to solar/battery farm combos. Plus, microgrids and VPPs are springing up like crazy right now too.

Don't forget that ICE vehicles are a net negative to our electrical grid. EVs are a net positive.

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[swengl]

There are a few reasons to want to keep the cord: 1) If you have a multi-bay garage and need to share the charger (it's easier to stretch a cable between the two vehicles and not have to move vehicles around to get a charge. 2) It will still be more cost effective to plug in. Inductive charging will involve some energy loss (if anyone knows of any preliminary studies around this, please enlighten us!) and the cost of hardware will probably be higher, at least at first. I personally like the idea of inductive charging while driving on streets/highways. I hope they can perfect that so the battery pack sizes can continue to shrink while range can be extended while on the road.

 

[Crissa]

Maybe these things make sense in robotaxi garages or bus stops. Maaaaybe parking decks. That's gonna be about it. Building more DC fast chargers and deploying the robotic tentacle cables is going to be cheaper, easier and more impactful.

There are a few reasons to want to keep the cord: 1) If you have a multi-bay garage and need to share the charger (it's easier to stretch a cable between the two vehicles and not have to move vehicles around to get a charge. 2) It will still be more cost effective to plug in. Inductive charging will involve some energy loss (if anyone knows of any preliminary studies around this, please enlighten us!) and the cost of hardware will probably be higher, at least at first. I personally like the idea of inductive charging while driving on streets/highways. I hope they can perfect that so the battery pack sizes can continue to shrink while range can be extended while on the road.

This, honestly.

What apartments need isn't induction - although that solves the problem of someone driving over the cable - it's smart charging units cheap enough you can put them in most of the parking spots and then not care if they're not used.

Then you'd have plenty of room to charge electric bikes or cars. Adapters to use a NACS or J1772 are currently a $100, 3" cube object, and then anything can charge off them.

The power in parking lots for say, old mercury lighting, is enough to charge an electric bike, and the circuit is strong enough for 3-5 miles per hour on a car. In new construction, make it smart, and it could know how much amperage is being pulled from each one, and share the load across multiple spaces.

Plain plugs are just more adaptable than induction pads at this scale.

Commercial equipment with induction should be a thing, tho. Harder to break, takes almost no time to plug or unplug...

-Crissa

 

[GuyV]

Now, what we should be wondering next:

how much does this bad boy weigh?

Jay Leno?

 

[anionic1]

Oh of course, all kinds of interesting market outcomes!


For the incredulous, this isn't pie-in-sky - Tesla would be far from the only company developing this.

Currently, several pilot projects already exist around the world.

Here's one Ford, Electreon, Michigan Department of Transportation, and Next Era have in process.






In part, yes.

The company Tesla purchased to acquire this IP already had retrofitted Tesla's with these systems, and have/had several pilot charge stations running them.

Not to overstate, obviously these are early stage tech and only pilots, but there's more going on out there than meets the eye.



IN TERMS OF THINKING AROUND CORNERS:

Who is going to charge robotaxi's (whether Tesla's or others?)

A queue of robotaxi's sitting at an airport for hours on end can be charging, and not need to return to a homebase for connective charging intervention.

Similarly, buses in bus lanes, or at a stop

So, this kind of system makes sense above all in urban transport where speeds aren't too high.



And needs to be pointed out

The payoff here isn't merely an alternative to plugging in.

With these types of systems, an eg robotaxi needs only a much smaller, lighter, cheaper battery

Same for busses, etc.


Point being, the ecosystem of inductive being installed in roads, etc., isn't merely an added feature at added cost. It also replaces many current constraints and costs.

I work a lot with city infrastructure. I am working to install a new intersection now. Cities are so outdated and behind the current technology its incredible. Just tying in new street lighting is often very complex. Finding the transformer and getting power and controls to the lighting etc. and that's just lighting. Work in the public streets and with public utilties is incredibly expensive. Just getting a few conduits into a project site for public power utility conduit pathways is usually minimum $100k. I can't even see major public hubs like airports because usually vehicles are sitting for 15 min or less in the transit lanes. That will not provide meaningful charging at induction capacities. And chargers use big power. You want 20 chargers at an intersection with the potential of 10 charging at any given time. Thats about 500 amps of power. Thats its own transformer and its own connection to the utility. I could see that costing $250k per intersection easily. If you do the math and somehow they figure out the charging and can charge consumers somehow at a reasonable $0.25/kWh. A typical busy intersection will probably make about $20/day. That would take over 30 years to pay off the chargers. Some cities will be cute and try to make it staple of a few intersections to get reelected. But I guarantee it will never become widespread. Not only because it doesnt pencil, but more so the cities are broke. most intersection work is paid for by the developers trying to build in the area. That 4 way signal and street work around it is costing the developer about $2M. The street signal and 4 new luminaires is costing the developer about $700k alone and even at that in a very desirable city in a high income area, they are struggling to bring the project to their budget.

For public induction to work in the sense where cars in transit can gain meaningful charge they would need to be city wide. Not just in cute locations like airports or a few intersections. And anywhere you can park and charge with an induction charger you could have a corded charger not built into the street. And there is potential risk to medical devices with induction devices. So just wait until the city attorneys get to have their final say. I just don't see large meaningful scale public induction charging happening. I do think that one day most houses will have induction charging in the parking stalls though. That makes sense.

And i want to make sure i am clear when i say public, i mean public property like streets, airports etc.. I do think that many private companies like shopping centers will likely switch to induction charging for convenience to their customers and i do agree that robotaxis or any other non manned fleet type service may benefit from induction charging, but that will occur on private property

 

[GuyV]

This would only work if the entire world becomes so wealthy that no-one works for a living anymore and we start getting bored and create vanity projects. The cost and feasibility are so far out of spec that I wonder why people even entertain the idea.

Bah, we've wired electricity and telephone to every house, mostly cable TV and internet too. Every street has streetlights. This is just another useful connection to the same old grid.

 

[Eclipse]

Exactly, miles of copper rails, basically.

I want to see these anywhere plugging and unplugging needs to be done quickly and efficiently. Think taxi-stands; or anywhere there's a queue of vehicles that come, sit for a few minutes, or need to be in a moving queue.

No one wants to wait for the taxi to park, plug, unplug. Or a row of bulk trucks waiting to be filled. Even at the low rate of power of current inductor pads, it reverses the power drain of sitting there ready to move, AC and electronics sucking up power.


But that's literally cementing in a charger. You've just taken the cord and wound the wire in the pavement.

I guess I don't understand your point?

-Crissa

The connection wire only is in the ground. You can plug the pad in to it. The pads can be bolted to a parking space and moved easily. NOT cemented in. You can turn them on or off. You can assign the spot for a EV or not an EV depending on the need. ANY vehicle can use the spot. They could litterly assign the electricity to your address. It could be used as a perk of renting there. I guess the best part of this is the ability to assign the spot and any vehicle can use the spot not just an EV is a great selling point to a apartment complex. Most apartment complex have parking spots labeled with 416 a or 416 b. If all maintenance had to do was take a pad plug it in at the front of the parking spot then put it in the middle of the parking spot and bolt it into the asphalt how easy is that? Not to mention that that pad could be assigned to your apartments Electric bill. And if at any time you don't want to do that it can be turned off you could still use the parking spot it just doesn't charge. The hands-free part makes it amazing. Great selling point!

 

[GuyV]

I work a lot with city infrastructure. I am working to install a new intersection now. Cities are so outdated and behind the current technology its incredible. Just tying in new street lighting is often very complex. Finding the transformer and getting power and controls to the lighting etc. and that's just lighting. Work in the public streets and with public utilties is incredibly expensive. Just getting a few conduits into a project site for public power utility conduit pathways is usually minimum $100k. I can't even see major public hubs like airports because usually vehicles are sitting for 15 min or less in the transit lanes. That will not provide meaningful charging at induction capacities. And chargers use big power. You want 20 chargers at an intersection with the potential of 10 charging at any given time. Thats about 500 amps of power. Thats its own transformer and its own connection to the utility. I could see that costing $250k per intersection easily. If you do the math and somehow they figure out the charging and can charge consumers somehow at a reasonable $0.25/kWh. A typical busy intersection will probably make about $20/day. That would take over 30 years to pay off the chargers. Some cities will be cute and try to make it staple of a few intersections to get reelected. But I guarantee it will never become widespread. Not only because it doesnt pencil, but more so the cities are broke. most intersection work is paid for by the developers trying to build in the area. That 4 way signal and street work around it is costing the developer about $2M. The street signal and 4 new luminaires is costing the developer about $700k alone and even at that in a very desirable city in a high income area, they are struggling to bring the project to their budget.

For public induction to work in the sense where cars in transit can gain meaningful charge they would need to be city wide. Not just in cute locations like airports or a few intersections. And anywhere you can park and charge with an induction charger you could have a corded charger not built into the street. And there is potential risk to medical devices with induction devices. So just wait until the city attorneys get to have their final say. I just don't see large meaningful scale public induction charging happening. I do think that one day most houses will have induction charging in the parking stalls though. That makes sense.

And i want to make sure i am clear when i say public, i mean public property like streets, airports etc.. I do think that many private companies like shopping centers will likely switch to induction charging for convenience to their customers and i do agree that robotaxis or any other non manned fleet type service may benefit from induction charging, but that will occur on private property

Gee, that all sounds very expensive. But you know what? People are paying that and will continue to do so. That's what infrastructure is all about.

 

[GuyV]

Don't forget that ICE vehicles are a net negative to our electrical grid. EVs are a net positive.

Huh? Since when are they doing VTG?

 

[anionic1]

This, honestly.

What apartments need isn't induction - although that solves the problem of someone driving over the cable - it's smart charging units cheap enough you can put them in most of the parking spots and then not care if they're not used.

Then you'd have plenty of room to charge electric bikes or cars. Adapters to use a NACS or J1772 are currently a $100, 3" cube object, and then anything can charge off them.

The power in parking lots for say, old mercury lighting, is enough to charge an electric bike, and the circuit is strong enough for 3-5 miles per hour on a car. In new construction, make it smart, and it could know how much amperage is being pulled from each one, and share the load across multiple spaces.

Plain plugs are just more adaptable than induction pads at this scale.

Commercial equipment with induction should be a thing, tho. Harder to break, takes almost no time to plug or unplug...

-Crissa

Most facilities are vastly underpowered to handle the imminent wave of EVs coming. I am working on large new builds around LA and some cities see it and have high EV charging requirements. Recently a 230 unit new apartment complex with some mixed use grocery and office space had requirements for 80 installed EV chargers. I think the total parking count was in the 300 range. so it was a large portion of the stalls. Those EV stalls needed about 5000 amps of power. The entire project was only about 12000 amps for the offices, retail, grocery store and apartments. That is an intense amount of power. And its a complicated process to make major electrical improvements to a property. It is not completely uncommon for us to build a $50M project over 12 months and complete the project and still not have power from the utility company in a major city.

Really interestingly the complicated part of many of these EV chargers in apartments is how to charge the users. Tesla has a good commercial program and so does Chargepoint, but its still kindof messy. Often the developers have to fork out the electrical cost up front and get reimbursed. Ideally the chargers would be wired to each units electrical panel which is metered separately, but that would take a bunch of extra wiring so they usually tie them to a local dedicated EV house panels and the user gets charged through an app and the charger company reimburses the owner.

Using existing power in a parking lot from lighting will only work in very small very low use locations for the next decade. I think in 99% of cases charging is going shift to being done at your residence.

 

[cvalue13]

I work a lot with city infrastructure.

Same

ities are so outdated and behind the current technology its incredible.

yes, and it presents great business opportunities.

It's fundamentally where my business sits: edge compute infrastructure as a service.

It's not only not required that a city has to own or operate any of this infrastructure, it's preferrable.

For public induction to work in the sense where cars in transit can gain meaningful charge they would need to be city wide.

Disagree here.

And to level-set, no one reasonable is suggesting that on some flip of a switch cities will be populated with this sort of technology such that people don't need charging at home.

Perhaps in some distant future it comes to that, but between now and then there are small but meaningful step-wise changes and creative use cases.

And, as ever, risk of failure.

And i want to make sure i am clear when i say public, i mean public property like streets, airports etc.. I do think that many private companies like shopping centers will likely switch to induction charging for convenience to their customers and i do agree that robotaxis or any other non manned fleet type service may benefit from induction charging, but that will occur on private property

Again, it's not necessarily either-or.

But in any event, among the initial step-changes will be, I agree, private company deployment - be it deployment on private or public property.


And these charging solutions don't have to satisfy complete charging needs. They merely need to extend range of the vehicle, or reduce the need for battery sizes in the vehicle, to be valuable.

 

[REM]

Huh? Since when are they doing VTG?

Not at full scale yet, of course, but there are quite a few projects out there doing test runs.

Tesla's main focus right now is with the powerwalls, but the CT will be the first mass market vehicle capable of native VTG, VTV.

 

[GuyV]

Not at full scale yet, of course, but there are quite a few projects out there doing test runs.

Tesla's main focus right now is with the powerwalls, but the CT will be the first mass market vehicle capable of native VTG, VTV.

ICE vehicles? Where is that happening? I haven't heard a single hint of it.

 

[cvalue13]

ICE vehicles? Where is that happening? I haven't heard a single hint of it.

are you talking about ICE V2G?

or?

 

[Crissa]

The connection wire only is in the ground. You can plug the pad in to it. The pads can be bolted to a parking space and moved easily. NOT cemented in. You can turn them on or off. You can assign the spot for a EV or not an EV depending on the need. ANY vehicle can use the spot.

Any vehicle can use a spot near an EVSE already. It doesn't do anything to the ground. You can turn them on or off. They can be smart and balance the load, limit the power levels, etc.

The induction loop is basically another type of connector cable. It still needs an EVSE cabinet.

You can plug and unplug an EVSE from an outlet on the wall, too, and it doesn't need a loop on/in the ground, if you want to swap spaces.

But you still need to wire power to nearby the parking spots either way: induction doesn't help that at all.

Using existing power in a parking lot from lighting will only work in very small very low use locations for the next decade. I think in 99% of cases charging is going shift to being done at your residence.

...It doesn't help the 17% of Americans who live in apartments that 99% of the electrification is in single-family homes.

-Crissa

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