[VOX] Self-driving cars: The 21st-century trolley problem

Ranulf

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Unfortunately most media today refuses to admit it has bias or an agenda. Its impossible for humans to avoid bias, every piece of media we produce will have bias.

Things were better when most media sources openly declared their bias and didn’t even try to be objective. They let the reader do that for themselves. We are kinda-sorta getting back to that with news sources like TESLArati. Its right in the name.
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rr6013

rr6013

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Umm sure? I was thinking more like this:

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When you play "Grand Theft Auto", the computer-driven cars don't suffer from phantom braking, or slam into obvious obstacles, because they can interpret the environment with 100% accuracy.
Would you actually agree that GTA players don’t suffer from phantom braking and slam…because they can interpret the environment with 100% accuracy?
 

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One of my favorite trolley problems, self driving or human decision. You can hit one of two cars in front of you, or both. If you hit both, you double the number of victims but you halve the impact force (let's just go with a true equal hit which is impossible). You could save lives, but double the number injured.

The impact to you is actually worse, as you experience effectively double the resistance.
 

Crissa

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The impact to you is actually worse, as you experience effectively double the resistance.
True, but you also have twice the impact absorption to soften the crash rather than tear apart your safety cage.

Small offset is nasty and makes a funny blip in the calculation that no driver or AI in the near future is going to be making.

-Crissa
 

John K

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One of my favorite trolley problems, self driving or human decision. You can hit one of two cars in front of you, or both. If you hit both, you double the number of victims but you halve the impact force (let's just go with a true equal hit which is impossible). You could save lives, but double the number injured.

The impact to you is actually worse, as you experience effectively double the resistance.
Telephone pole instead. Personal preference, avoid innocent harm. Also, drink a lot of alcohol and hope it absorbs to go relax during the crash.
 
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rr6013

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One of my favorite trolley problems, self driving or human decision. You can hit one of two cars in front of you, or both. If you hit both, you double the number of victims but you halve the impact force (let's just go with a true equal hit which is impossible). You could save lives, but double the number injured.

The impact to you is actually worse, as you experience effectively double the resistance.
Human instinctive reaction time impulse defaults to “avoidance” 1st, “training” 2nd. It’s a law, literally in the USA, drivers are required to avoid accidents.

In this case, supposed time delay affords a calculation of violation of stautory law. You risk being charged with deliberate failure to avoid accident, gross negligence and worse.

In some imaginary scenario, Safety review of the circumstances would award you “Hero Points” for saving lives, albeit with injuries. That’s a Magical Thinking defense.

In Safety reviews people concoct rational explanations to justify actions, simply stories. They always betray a truth, fact and comeback upon the storyteller. Shit happens. Trained professional in the art and skills have accidents. They often times have accidents they’ve avoided.

At the end of the review, truth matters. Taking responsibility for hurting more people admitting deliberate targeting vehicles would be truth - yours. Its not going to be seen as anything other than a story, rationalization and worse reflect on some preconceived hero notion.
 

SwampNut

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None of that addresses anything I said. There are situations where you will hit something and just have to choose which. In my actual case, I came around a corner on my motorcycle, to find two morons parked side by side in the roadway chatting through their windows. Because it was on a bike I was able to take the little space left. In a car, I'd have to hit one.
 

SwampNut

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And likewise irrelevant, but thank you for playing. I'd bet everyone on this forum has gone around a corner with insufficient time to stop for a totally stopped obstacle, and self driving will have to learn to deal with that, because we are likely to continue doing it as a species. "Nobody" follows the yellow signs.
 

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It currently does, so why would you expect it to stop? I can tell my car to drive over the speed limit, and it rarely responds to the yellow signs at all. Maybe you mean a full AI, with no driver intervention at all? I'm talking about the real cars we can get now, and in the near future.

If we do stop letting owners guide the car, do you think that will hamper acceptance when people around here commonly do 75 in a 55 in some places?
 

Crissa

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It currently does, so why would you expect...
Why would I expect an AI driver to learn?

Because that's the point of an AI driver. It's not stuck at its capabilities from last month, let alone last year, last decade.

Right now Autopilot isn't even supposed to do that. But FSD Beta is. And mostly does.

-Crissa
 

Sirfun

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And likewise irrelevant, but thank you for playing. I'd bet everyone on this forum has gone around a corner with insufficient time to stop for a totally stopped obstacle, and self driving will have to learn to deal with that, because we are likely to continue doing it as a species. "Nobody" follows the yellow signs.
In your scenario, I would have tried to squeeze my vehicle into the space big enough for the motorcycle, and not big enough for my vehicle, somehow attempting to avoid straight on collision between my front end and their rear ends. Like Crissa said, it's my fault for coming around a blind curve too quickly. What if instead of 2 idiots yacking in the middle of the road, there was an accident that had caused a traffic jam and I come flying around a blind corner. Or how about a downed motorcycle rider and the bike in the middle of the road. Lots of scenarios where driving faster than you can stop around blind curves is a bad idea. Luckily you learned a cheap lesson on your motorcycle.
I had a cheap lesson like that once on a curvy mountain road. I was play racing through the Santa Monica Mountains, and caught up to a slow driving motorist almost instantaneously, I followed him for about 30 seconds or less and on a straight away he pulled to the right. At that point, I punched it to go by him and immediately realized there was a HUGE problem. He was initiating a U-turn! Oh CRAP. Full gas, to full brakes, and dive to the left. He sees me, and straightens out onto the other shoulder. Somehow we ended up side by side with highly elevated pulses and apologizing to each other with both vehicles unharmed. BIG lesson, it's always better to pass someone when they KNOW you are there.
 
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Sirfun

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It currently does, so why would you expect it to stop? I can tell my car to drive over the speed limit, and it rarely responds to the yellow signs at all. Maybe you mean a full AI, with no driver intervention at all? I'm talking about the real cars we can get now, and in the near future.

If we do stop letting owners guide the car, do you think that will hamper acceptance when people around here commonly do 75 in a 55 in some places?
I agree, I've seen current Beta videos where the Tesla totally ignore the yellow speed advisory signs. I can only imagine the FSD computer has some grasp of how fast it can take the turn safely with whatever current conditions allow.
 

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Everyone is ignoring the fact that the owner can tell both AP and FSD to ignore the law.

If we do stop letting owners guide the car, do you think that will hamper acceptance when people around here commonly do 75 in a 55 in some places?
 
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